Prom 10: Andsnes/Mahler CO (24.07.15)

[Barbirollians]

Disappointed - the period nature of the performance also made me think why not just get a fortepiano . I found it all a bit mannered .

[gurnemanz]

Lorra lorra gushing on telly.
Suzy told us the performance of LvB 3 was going to be sensational beforehand,gotta hand it to her,she was right.
Who nicked the piano lid ?

Wasn't Liszt the first to lift the piano lid in concert? Suzy seemed even more waffle-prone than ever in unscripted mode.

[EdgeleyRob]

'Swat Brautigam did for his Beethoven Piano and Orchestra survey on BIS.

Does it make such a big difference to the sound Bryn ?

Might be a silly question.

[Bryn]

Does it make such a big difference to the sound Bryn ?

Might be a silly question.

Since there is also the matter of the role of the recording and mixing engineers to be taken into consideration re. the Brautigam CDs, and as I have not attended any of the Andsnes performances, I cannot comment with any authority re. the particular difference in the sound. As I understand it, the main bonus is in ensemble. The other musicians are enabled to interact more closely with the pianist.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Disappointed - the period nature of the performance also made me think why not just get a fortepiano . I found it all a bit mannered .

Surely a piano of that style and design would be swamped in the RAH.

[VodkaDilc]

This was the one concert from the Beethoven Concerto series which I decided not to go to, but I watched it on television. Once again, the two Beethoven works were most enjoyable, though I feel pleased that I opted to attend the other two (I wouldn't want to miss the last two concertos in person). I'm not sure what the logic was behind including the Schoenberg; wouldn't a Stravinsky choral work have fitted in better? (Obviously the singers needed something to do, apart from the conclusion of the Beethoven.)

My main gripe (and shock) was to see just how low BBC4 television presentation has fallen. The script of the two presenters sounded like a Private Eye spoof and I eventually had to use the fast-forward button. How can Tom Service come over so well in print and then get involved in garbage like this? His female partner (not sure of her name) was even worse. In Thursday's concert, Andsnes gave two encores. If he did the same at this concert, BBC4 chose not to show them. Instead, since this concert appeared to finish early, we were given two 1960s excerpts from Top of the Pops. If we read it in Private Eye, we would think they had made it up.

[Nick Armstrong]

My main gripe (and shock) was to see just how low BBC4 television presentation has fallen. The script of the two presenters sounded like a Private Eye spoof

her and Dave Lee Service

... and Vodka I couldn't agree more. I can't stand a second of it and before listening to / watching any of the music, used the Panasonic PVR's very handy 'divide/partial delete' function to eliminate from my recording all trace, visual or aural, of the idiotic double act.

That done, I enjoyed the Beethoven performances very much! The keyboard-to-audience piano arrangement is very 'photogenic' too, the shots from the end of the case along the exposed innards of the instrument down to Andsnes playing and conducting I found eye[catching and dramatic, and an asset to enjoyment.

[edashtav]

Schoenberg wrote Friede auf Erden in 1907 when his chromatic late-Romantic style was becoming so fractured by constant tonal flux that it was taking on a fin de siècle quality. There were no more degrees of freedom to be discovered and exploited within tonal music & the time for a new rigidity was about to dawn. Schoenberg’s “Peace on Earth” is such a ne plus ultra that it poses huge difficulties for choirs more than a century after completion and whilst I’ve heard a dozen or more performances & recordings over the years none have convincingly offered “Peace on Earth” and most have projected a presentiment of WWI through raw tuning, smoke-filled textures and ugly sounding voices. Amongst the better versions is one by the BBC Singers with Pierre Boulez in control in his inimitable, if plain style. It was brave of David Hill to use the original, a cappella, version but it was a good choice: the alternative offers the comfort of tuning support through instrumental doubling but the instruments cloud and occlude the textures. I felt that part of David’s brilliance was the cleansing of the aural soundscape, his control of foreground and background were superb . The effect was analogous to a restorer clearing layers of dirt and varnish from an old master. He revealed a complex, challenging but loveable work. I was impressed by the security of tuning and the lack of “forcing” at climaxes. The work had a 3-D spatial geometry. Possibly, the final chord was produced a little like a rabbit from a hat– I’d have preferred David to have engaged the retro-rockets slightly earlier and more strongly to ensure a cushioned landing on the planet of peace and consonance. But, that’s a trifle. Is there more still to be done? Yes, I think so. David Hill has cleaned the some of the more foetid sounds from the Singers’ Augean stables since he took charge, but the overall product remains rooted in the late 20th century and lacks that final beauteous bloom that one of two 21st century competitor choirs in Germany and Japan can achieve. In place of foetid, I want freshness. But… choirs remain “Works in Progress” and the changes that David Hill has achieved have been in a good direction. Long may his tenure at the BBC Singers endure. Just a word about programming: placing this piece as a sandwich filling amongst some finely cooked Beethoven piano concerti was brave but a little unsettling. I’d have liked a bit of context, maybe a late Max Reger choir piece, or the lushness of one of Richard Strauss’s choral scores.

[Serial_Apologist]

the time for a new rigidity was about to dawn.

Is that what you really meant to write? I don't usually find myself in disagreement with what you have to say!

[edashtav]

Is that what you really meant to write? I don't usually find myself in disagreement with what you have to say!

Yes, SA. I was referring to the dawn of serialism - a new book of rules.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, SA. I was referring to the dawn of serialism - a new book of rules.

But then your comment about "there were no more degrees freedoms [sic] to be discovered and exploited" is inaccurate - the Second S4tet, the Book of the Hanging Garden, the Op11 & 19 piano pieces, the Five Orchestral Pieces, Erwartung, Die Gluckliche Hand, Pierrot Lunaire, Die Jakobsleiter, the Four Orchestral Songs - all demonstrate soundworlds full of degrees freedoms being discovered and exploited that Friede auf Erden can barely dream of.


I'm also always perplexed when Friede is described as posing "huge difficultiries for the choir" - it isn't easy, and wasn't performed for many years after it was written, but as a teenager I took part in a non-professional performance of the a capella version conducted by Philip Wilby. After about half-a-dozen rehearsals, we got through, kept in time and in tune throughout - just needs a good conductor to ensure a good performance.

[edashtav]

You're right, fhg, my meaning was unclear and undermined by typos - the latter were due to optical problems that I'm suffering following a set of wasp stings around my one good eyea fortnight ago.
I'll try again:
<There were no more degrees of freedom to be discovered and exploited within tonal music & the time for a new rigidity was about to dawn. >

Your examples are from atonal music - to which I should have referred as another stage on the road to serialism - and one with a significant increase in freedom - thank you for pointing out my senior moment.

As for "huge" difficulties - yes, guilty as charged of over-egging the pudding.

[edashtav]

{..}


I'm also always perplexed when Friede is described as posing "huge difficultiries for the choir" - it isn't easy, and wasn't performed for many years after it was written, but as a teenager I took part in a non-professional performance of the a capella version conducted by Philip Wilby. After about half-a-dozen rehearsals, we got through, kept in time and in tune throughout - just needs a good conductor to ensure a good performance.

Your mention of Philip Wilby interested me, fhg, as I knew a couple of his church pieces and heard one piece for brass. All seemed well-composed within a conservative idiom. I knew nothing of the man and wondered whether he had gifts that might make Schoenberg's piece accessible to non-professional musicians. After a bit of googling, I came up with this warm biography of him which classes his musicianship alongside that of Britten : http://www.john-robert-brown.com/phil-wilby.htm

[Zucchini]

Re: Removing the piano lid

...I cannot comment with any authority re. the particular difference in the sound. As I understand it, the main bonus is in ensemble. The other musicians are enabled to interact more closely with the pianist.

You're definitely right. A while ago I saw Barenboim play the Emperor at Symphony Hall and conduct his Staatskapelle from the keyboard with the lid removed. The piano was situated right of where the podium would be and turned so that he faced his troops.

I was disappointed. The piano sound was weakened considerably - not helpful to his muscular interpretation. But the Staatskapelle were wonderful.

I've also seen Schiff play and conduct with the lid removed - but with the piano in its normal place.

[Tony Halstead]

Re: Removing the piano lidYou're definitely right. A while ago I saw Barenboim play the Emperor at Symphony Hall and conduct his Staatskapelle from the keyboard with the lid removed. The piano was situated right of where the podium would be and turned so that he faced his troops.

I was disappointed. The piano sound was weakened considerably - not helpful to his muscular interpretation. But the Staatskapelle were wonderful.

I've also seen Schiff play and conduct with the lid removed - but with the piano in its normal place.

The piano LID is an essential component in its 'sound projection'.
I can't believe that an orchestra - especially a 'listening orchestra' - couldn't cope with accompanying a pianist in 'essential core repertoire' with the piano lid 'on and raised'.
With 'non-divided' violins the piano lid would block the sightlines between 2nd violins and cellos ( or violas).
I must say at this point, I do abhor the current 'fashionable' trend that solo pianists should 'direct' their concertos.
The well-known and authenticated system of 18th -century 'direction' was a DUAL one - the keyboard player whether a soloist or a 'continuo' player would look at the 1st violinist ( 'leader' as we now understand it) for e.g. tempo and maybe even 'mood'. This 'dual direction' was explored very successfully many years ago in the Academy of Ancient Music's Mozart Symphony recordings, where the overall direction was divided between Jaap Schroeder ( violin) and Christopher Hogwood ( harpsichord)