Prom 4: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9 (19.07.15)

[edashtav]

Thanks, Tony, for providing so much background information on the genesis of LvB's horn parts for his last symphony. I hope some of the old chestnuts will be roasted and turned into cinders.

[Roehre]

Thanks, Tony, for providing so much background information on the genesis of LvB's horn parts for his last symphony. I hope some of the old chestnuts will be roasted and turned into cinders.

Seconded.

Regarding the musicians employed at the premiere and the 2nd performance in May 1824: as the score was ready by February and sent to the copyists (with the 4th horn part as it now stands) and it wasn't known until mid April whether and if so where the concert would take place and which would be the performing orchestra and which amateurs would be able to assist (the 4 soloists were handpicked by Beethoven as early as end January - See Konversationshefte vol.5 and vol.6), the horn parts cannot have been written with the Lewy brothers in mind

It is possible, but highly unlikely, that Beethoven actually heard a valve horn, as they were discussed (and patented in Paris) as early as 1816.
However, valve horns were at the time of the establishing of the Vienna Philharmonic in the late 1830s (founded 1842) still far away from being standard instruments - and Brahms never composed for valved brass, though the horn was one of his favourite instruments, e.g.)

[Zucchini]

...the 1st horn was Elspeth Dutch! Now, isn't she a cracker! Actually, she never cracks her notes and many rate her as the best, active hornspieler in Britain.

Near the end of Rattle's tenure we heard a performance of Heldenleben (which was broadcast live) and the horn playing of the closing pages was so exquisite that I asked the CBSO who the mysterious young girl was.

Of course, it was Elspeth (Taylor at that time) who was on probation at 22 for principal horn and showed the fearlessness, control and golden tone that are her trademarks. I've heard her countless times and genuinely missed her when she's been absent building a family!

[jean]

I do hope and trust that the CBSO will get somebody with rather more personal charisma than K. Petrenko.

They could do a lot worse than V. Petrenko, but he's spoken for.

[teamsaint]

They could do a lot worse than V. Petrenko, but he's spoken for.

everybody has their price.


These days.

[Darkbloom]

I'd be interested to hear from the musicians among you who have worked for conductors. What struck me about Nelson's performance of the Ninth was how little actual 'conducting' he was doing. Most of the time it seemed that he was encouraging his players to be expressive (within limitations worked out in rehearsal, presumably) but only on rare occasions did I notice any discernible 'beat'. I can't remember seeing a conductor who conducted even well-worn pieces like this with so little obvious direction. It may well be that it was so subtle that a non-musician couldn't pick it up, but I would be grateful to hear the opinions of those with practical experience.

[MrGongGong]

I'd be interested to hear from the musicians among you who have worked for conductors. What struck me about Nelson's performance of the Ninth was how little actual 'conducting' he was doing. Most of the time it seemed that he was encouraging his players to be expressive (within limitations worked out in rehearsal, presumably) but only on rare occasions did I notice any discernible 'beat'. I can't remember seeing a conductor who conducted even well-worn pieces like this with so little obvious direction. It may well be that it was so subtle that a non-musician couldn't pick it up, but I would be grateful to hear the opinions of those with practical experience.

"actual 'conducting' " isn't all about keeping the 'beat'

[Darkbloom]

"actual 'conducting' " isn't all about keeping the 'beat'

I'd never have guessed! I'm so grateful to you for your wisdom.

[french frank]

Discussion of the presentation and similar moved to separate thread. Thread about Prom 4, Beethoven 9, this particular performance here.

[MrGongGong]

I'd never have guessed! I'm so grateful to you for your wisdom.

You did say this

"What struck me about Nelson's performance of the Ninth was how little actual 'conducting' he was doing. Most of the time it seemed that he was encouraging his players to be expressive (within limitations worked out in rehearsal, presumably) but only on rare occasions did I notice any discernible 'beat'."

So what is, in your view, "actual conducting" ?

[french frank]

So what is, in your view, "actual conducting" ?

I left the last post because it related specifically to the conductor of this concert. I wasn't really expecting it to go on to another topic altogether.

This is the subforum for discussing the concerts :-)

[King_Ouf_I]

I see that there are now video recordings of the first half of this concert on iPlayer: two separate 'programmes', labelled 'Beethoven Creatures of Prometheus' and 'Woolrich Falling Down', as it were.

But before you all rush to watch, a warning: these seem to have been produced by the work-experience lad on his evening off, and not by any professional video editor/producer. Both are single-camera recordings, with occasional vomit-inducing pans or zooms. At NO POINT in the Woolrich do we get any sort of close up of the soloist, and when the cameraman does decide to zoom in, it's often on players doing absolutely nothing! Furthermore, although Prometheus is barely more than 5 minutes long, the recording lasts over an hour: the remaining 60+ minutes consist of a blank screen apart from the BBC DOG in the top left-hand corner. Totally unacceptable production values, in my opinion.

Some may consider the complete absence of presentation a bonus, of course...

[Bert Coules]

Both are single-camera recordings...

I've often thought that opera DVDs filmed live would be the better for offering a fixed-camera view of the entire stage as an alternative to the usual directed option with closeups and angles that might not be to the viewer's taste, though without, of course, any "vomit-inducing pans or zooms". In some ways, these iPlayer videos sound like a step in that direction.

[Hornspieler]

I'd be interested to hear from the musicians among you who have worked for conductors. What struck me about Nelson's performance of the Ninth was how little actual 'conducting' he was doing. Most of the time it seemed that he was encouraging his players to be expressive (within limitations worked out in rehearsal, presumably) but only on rare occasions did I notice any discernible 'beat'. I can't remember seeing a conductor who conducted even well-worn pieces like this with so little obvious direction. It may well be that it was so subtle that a non-musician couldn't pick it up, but I would be grateful to hear the opinions of those with practical experience.

If you watched that ghastly China Philharmonic Orchestra on last year's proms, you will have seen an example of what might be called "actual" conducting. (Down, left, across, up.)

A conductor's job is to interpret and inspire, but of course, the orchestra have to have some indication of when to start. (Or, with the Midsummer Nights Dream overture, when to play those four opening bars at the same time)

So the first downbeat is the starter most of the time to bring everyone in together.

But some conductors do not even need to do that. A nod of the head, perhaps - or the sort of mental telepathy that the great Bruno Walter had; almost, I felt, controlling my mind on the one occasion when I was privileged to play for him in an all-Mahler programme.

Some conductors simply give a nod. Others may use their free hand*.
A certain Russian conductor uses a cocktail stick, but the usual indication is the straightforward downbeat.

Furtwangler's downbeat was a series of zigzags. I asked a member of the Philharmonia how on earth they knew when to come in.

"You have to pick your notch" he told me. "We have all settled on the fourth notch down as the one to play on."

So, having got the work started, the conductor can indulge himself interpreting the music - encouraging the phrasing, the dynamics, the rise and fall.

That is what Andris Nelsons was doing on Sunday night. "Realising" what had already been rehearsed.

* But here is a nice little story to illustrate what disasters may occur.

Schwarz moved on to the City of Birmingham Orchestra and his place on the podium was taken by Charles Groves, (later Sir
Charles), who recalled his first concert with a wry smile.

“The National Anthem was no problem,” he said. “A signal to the `roll and batter'
department as I ascended the rostrum brought orchestra and audience to their feet and I beat
my way through the piece without incident. The first item on the programme was the
Tannhauser Overture by Wagner. As the audience settled into their seats, I felt an itch at the
back of my right ear and raised my hand to scratch it. The orchestra, still accustomed to the
ways of Mr. Schwarz, started to play!”

Maestro Nelsons was enjoying himself with the music which had already been carefully prepared by himself and the CBSO's Chorus Master, for whom much of the credit for that performance is due.

HS

BTW Has anybody ever heard a really clean opening to Beethoven's 5th symphony?

[Bert Coules]

Famously, the great Reginald Goodall once leaned over to the leader of the waiting ENO orchestra and whispered, "I've started!".