Prom 4: Beethoven – Symphony No. 9 (19.07.15)

[Darkbloom]

While everyone else whips themselves into a frenzy of indignation about the BBC's no doubt somewhat egregious interjection of Mark Elder, can we get back to the performance? It might not have been the Beethoven 9th to end all Beethoven 9ths (I suspect that no such performance exists) but it was, err, joyous ... Beautifully played by the CBSO and not half badly sung, even allowing for the baritone's slightly mangled German. Bravo to Andris Nelsons - I will never be rude about him again.

I think 'slightly' would be a winning contender in an 'Understatement of the Year' Contest! I don't know what language he thought he was singing but it wasn't German. Quite often very Slavonic voices have such a persuasive way with the text that it doesn't matter how odd it sounds, but this was one occasion when it didn't work out. Still, a minor blemish on a very moving performance. It was a performance that sounded strongly individual to me, with no real connection to a particular performing tradition. Although I couldn't detect much in the way of 'Period' style, it wasn't stodgy, unimaginative Beethoven either, just very much his own view of the work; almost narrative in the way he was phrasing and building the performance.

It was the first time I have seen him live, and it was interesting to see how he hardly seems to 'conduct' at all, except for certain parts like the beginning of the final movement. Mostly he seemed to be encouraging his players to be expressive rather than dictating to them. I don't know whether this is Nelson's style, or it was the result of playing a very familiar work with no need to have a tight grip on everything. A particular high spot for me was the slow movement, which can so often lose its way after a few minutes; on this occasion things felt like they were heading inevitably to their conclusion. Almost put me in mind of Furtwangler at times.

Such a contrast to the conducting vacuum that gave such a disappointing performance last year. It's easy to overpraise an early performance in the season as a 'highlight', but it will need something very special to improve on last night.

[Hornspieler]

I thought the opening of the finale was untidy and the intonation in the lower strings sounded a little approximate in places, BUT
That is the best singing by a massed choir that I have heard in decades.

The solo quartet "got away with it"

It is a ridiculous task for the singers to maintain their ensemble and pitch when singing à cappella and this particular quartet got as near to it as anyone I have heard since Lennie Bernstein and, I think, an all American group of soloists with the VSO.

(That was a long time ago, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yes, a good send off for Maestro Nelsons. Who is next in the frame, I wonder?

HS

[edashtav]

just a note to hs and jonfan re HORN#1. I didn't watch the telecast as I stay loyal, as another boarder would say, to the "Senior Service". But, an old friend did so and he told me the 1st horn was Elspeth Dutch! Now, isn't she a cracker! Actually, she never cracks her notes and many rate her as the best, active hornspieler in Britain.

Now that all horn-players have chromatic instruments and not just #4 as in Beethoven's band, why not ask the best to do the honours?

[Tony Halstead]

just a note to hs and jonfan re HORN#1. I didn't watch the telecast as I stay loyal, as another boarder would say, to the "Senior Service". But, an old friend did so and he told me the 1st horn was Elspeth Dutch! Now, isn't she a cracker! Actually, she never cracks her notes and many rate her as the best, active hornspieler in Britain.

Now that all horn-players have chromatic instruments and not just #4 as in Beethoven's band, why not ask the best to do the honours?

The 4th horn of Beethoven's time almost certainly DIDN'T have a fully chromatic horn. Beethoven was already totally deaf by the time 'the valve' was invented and he would not have written for an instrument he had never heard. All his horn writing is for the valveless 'hand horn'.
Although undoubtedly tricky on either a valve horn or a hand horn (without valves) the chromatic writing for the '4th horn' always stays within the boundaries of what is possible on a valveless horn. I say '4th horn' because in fact this player is the 2nd horn or 'cor basse' of the second pair of horns in the scoring. During the slow movement the 1st pair of horns ( horns '1 & 2' ) are in B flat basso and the 2nd pair of horns ( '3 & 4') are in E flat, so, because this woodwind-led 'episode' is in E flat, it fell to the E flat horn(s) to be featured at this point. If the tonal structure of the movement had been different or if Beethoven had assigned the E flat horns to players 1 & 2 then it would have been the '2nd horn' playing this solo part.
Other boarders have noted quite correctly that Beethoven - in many other works - often writes solos for the 2nd rather than the 1st horn. These are found in e.g. Symphonies 4 and 7, the 'Emperor' piano concerto, 'King Stephen' overture, 'Fidelio' overture etc. It was the 'cor basse's job to master hand technique, thereby filling in the gaps in the horn's middle register so that scale-wise passages could be played. The 1st horn's job was to master the high register, where very little hand technique is required.
One of the main reasons why the notorious B major scale and its following 7 notes ( concert pitch) is almost completely unaccompanied by the rest of the orchestra is so that it can actually be HEARD; out of those 15 notes, only 5 of them are 'open' and the other 10 are all, to some extent, 'hand modified', therefore much quieter ( in decibels). Of course, the player has the option of playing those notes louder but this would make an unpleasant 'cutting' or buzzing sound that would be quite alien to the contemplative, serene character of the music at that point in the movement.

[Darkbloom]

Yes, a good send off for Maestro Nelsons. Who is next in the frame, I wonder?

HS

I don't think anyone knows. There was someone in the arena last night who had a daughter in the orchestra and it seems that everyone is in the dark at this stage. I find the potential successor to Nelsons much more interesting than the the anointing of the new BPO conductor, personally, and it will be interesting to see who they eventually decide on.

[Tony Halstead]

I don't think anyone knows. There was someone in the arena last night who had a daughter in the orchestra and it seems that everyone is in the dark at this stage. I find the potential successor to Nelsons much more interesting than the the anointing of the new BPO conductor, personally, and it will be interesting to see who they eventually decide on.

I do hope and trust that the CBSO will get somebody with rather more personal charisma than K. Petrenko.

[MrGongGong]

I do hope and trust that the CBSO will get somebody with rather more personal charisma than K. Petrenko.

I think the problem is that (as Simon says) there's no decent concert hall in the UK for them to play in ...... erm oooops

[jonfan]

just a note to hs and jonfan re HORN#1. I didn't watch the telecast as I stay loyal, as another boarder would say, to the "Senior Service". But, an old friend did so and he told me the 1st horn was Elspeth Dutch! Now, isn't she a cracker! Actually, she never cracks her notes and many rate her as the best, active hornspieler in Britain.

Now that all horn-players have chromatic instruments and not just #4 as in Beethoven's band, why not ask the best to do the honours?

I think it's a bit rich if principals take the best parts, such as 1st oboe takes the cor anglais in the New World as an example. Beethoven often gives the second horn some independent solos for whatever reason. The Emperor comes to mind. As Tony mentions there may be other reasons why the 1st played on Sunday.

[Bryn]

Just been listening to Sir Mark's intro to the second movement. He claims that Beethoven called it a scherzo. Where? Not in the published score, that's for sure. Beethoven certainly used the term or its derivatives in the scores of his 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th Symphonies, but not, as far as I am aware, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th or 9th. Perhaps Roehre or someone else here with a deep knowledge of Beethoven's writings can give support to Sir Mark's assertion?

[Roehre]

Just been listening to Sir Mark's intro to the second movement. He claims that Beethoven called it a scherzo. Where? Not in the published score, that's for sure. Beethoven certainly used the term or its derivatives in the scores of his 2nd, 3rd, 7th and 8th Symphonies, but not, as far as I am aware, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th or 9th. Perhaps Roehre or someone else here with a deep knowledge of Beethoven's writings can give support to Sir Mark's assertion?

Though the mvt is an obvious scherzo, AFAIK it is not named by the composer as such.

It is interesting that B uses the word scherzo until 1803 quite regularly (if I count correctly 24 times).
After that it appears only 4 times in his output: Cello sonata op.69, violin sonata op.96, Archduke trio op.97 and in the Hammerklavier sonata op.106. Note that all these 28 scherzi appear exclusively in instrumental works, never in vocal ones.

AFAIK the term scherzo in relation to the Ninth is not even mentioned in discussions in the Conversation booklets (where the repeat of the 2nd mvt at the premiere is mentioned), but referred to as zweyter Satz (Second movement)

Something similar happens to Menuet(to), btw: 16 Menuet-movements (the Dances for the ball rooms from the mid-1790s not counted) upto 1803, after that only twice (Rasoumovsky III op.59/3 and -as parody!- the Tempo di Menuetto in the 8th symphony, not counting the GratulationsMenuett WoO 3 (1822), among the sketches for and possibly related to the 10th Symphony).

This is independent from another change in Beethoven's habits of describing movements.
The originally almost exclusively italian tempo indications change to German ones (there are only a few exceptions) from approximately 1815 onwards - even the tempi in the Pastoral symphony are in Italian though the description of the mvts is in German.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Though the mvt is an obvious scherzo, AFAIK it is not named by the composer as such.

Not in my pocket score either.

But in spirit, it surely is.

[Tony Halstead]

Not in my pocket score either.

But in spirit, it surely is.

Exactly so!

[Petrushka]

I was in the hall for this but tucked away in L stalls where a lot of the impact got lost. Even more annoyingly, got home to find that my recording had failed. I'll take an audio one from the I-player and watch the version without Sir M E.

I wasn't quite as enthusiastic as some as I found the first movement too easy-going but, as has already been said, a million times better than the awful effort last year.

Despite attending many LvB 9 performances at the Proms over the years there have certainly been some turkeys among them. Last year's Leipzig GO/Gilbert easily takes the palm in this regard but who can remember a deadly dull outing from Ferdinand Leitner and the LSO in 1983? Another LSO performance, this time with Sir Colin Davis, (mercifully I forget which year) never took off at all. My favourites are VPO/Abbado in 1987 and Chicago SO/Solti in 1996, both stunning and unforgettable.

[Barbirollians]

Leipzig and Masur I think 1988/9 was marvellous

[Tony Halstead]

The 4th horn of Beethoven's time almost certainly DIDN'T have a fully chromatic horn. Beethoven was already totally deaf by the time 'the valve' was invented and he would not have written for an instrument he had never heard. All his horn writing is for the valveless 'hand horn'.
Although undoubtedly tricky on either a valve horn or a hand horn (without valves) the chromatic writing for the '4th horn' always stays within the boundaries of what is possible on a valveless horn. I say '4th horn' because in fact this player is the 2nd horn or 'cor basse' of the second pair of horns in the scoring. During the slow movement the 1st pair of horns ( horns '1 & 2' ) are in B flat basso and the 2nd pair of horns ( '3 & 4') are in E flat, so, because this woodwind-led 'episode' is in E flat, it fell to the E flat horn(s) to be featured at this point. If the tonal structure of the movement had been different or if Beethoven had assigned the E flat horns to players 1 & 2 then it would have been the '2nd horn' playing this solo part.
Other boarders have noted quite correctly that Beethoven - in many other works - often writes solos for the 2nd rather than the 1st horn. These are found in e.g. Symphonies 4 and 7, the 'Emperor' piano concerto, 'King Stephen' overture, 'Fidelio' overture etc. It was the 'cor basse's job to master hand technique, thereby filling in the gaps in the horn's middle register so that scale-wise passages could be played. The 1st horn's job was to master the high register, where very little hand technique is required.
One of the main reasons why the notorious B major scale and its following 7 notes ( concert pitch) is almost completely unaccompanied by the rest of the orchestra is so that it can actually be HEARD; out of those 15 notes, only 5 of them are 'open' and the other 10 are all, to some extent, 'hand modified', therefore much quieter ( in decibels). Of course, the player has the option of playing those notes louder but this would make an unpleasant 'cutting' or buzzing sound that would be quite alien to the contemplative, serene character of the music at that point in the movement.

The old 'chestnut' concerning the 4th horn part being written for a valve horn rather than a hand horn may well be on account of the fact that one of the horn players in the 1st perfomance was thought to be one of the LEWY brothers, who was known to possess a valve horn. However, valve horns at this time had only 2 valves - the purpose of which was to change crooks rather more quickly than the old manual method of removing one crook and replacing it with another. One way - perhaps the only way that Lewy's 2 valves could have been usefully used would have entailed keeping the 1st valve depressed for 99% of the movement, therefore crooking the horn in E flat and still using (right) hand technique in the horn's bell; and then for the B major scale, changing to the 2nd valve would crook the horn in E so that more notes of the B major scale ( 6 out of 8) would be 'open' rather than hand-modified. IMV this is the only plausible explanation, or should I say, theory!