Following on from applause

[jean]

Being one of a half-dozen people listening to a concert in an otherwise empty hall isn't a good experience - and not only because one feels for the performers..

[french frank]

They are only wrong to believe that anything can be done about it, not in the wrong.

I don't, of course, think such people are 'in the wrong'. I was inferring from Master Jacques' comment that he did: "the fact that these events are communal gatherings ought to be part of their beauty: when we start demanding the same sublime stillness with which we can indulge ourselves in our own homes, surely we need to question where we are coming from?"

[underthecountertenor]

I shall reserve the patent for the new slimmed-down less-obtrusive Mark-2 version which I shall have to work on before the next such production.

I shall look out for it with keen anticipation. My money's on Cav & Pag

[Master Jacques]

I don't, of course, think such people are 'in the wrong'. I was inferring from Master Jacques' comment that he did: "the fact that these events are communal gatherings ought to be part of their beauty: when we start demanding the same sublime stillness with which we can indulge ourselves in our own homes, surely we need to question where we are coming from?"

I think you plucked that wilting flower of mine slightly out of its context. As Beef Oven! puts it, I hoped that I'd been clear, that I did not believe in one outlook or the other - indeed, I said precisely that: "There is no right and wrong, and something to be said on all sides". But just as it is a clearly impossible to avoid the communal aspect of the concert hall or live, operatic experience, it is equally impossible to claim that one set of behavioural rules is superior to any other.

Here, for amusement, is Mozart talking about how he wrote his Paris Symphony, incorporating effects precisely calculated to spur the audience into very noisy action:

"In the middle of the first Allegro there was a passage which I felt sure must please. The audience were quite carried away - and there was a tremendous burst of applause. But as I knew, when I wrote it, what effect it would surely produce, I had introduced the passage again at the close - when there were shouts of 'Da Capo'! The Andante also found favour, but particularly the last Allegro, because, having observed that all last as well as frist Allegros begin here with all the instruments playing together and generally unisono, I began mine with two violins only, piano for the first eight bars - followed instantly by a forte; the audience, as I expected, said 'hush' at the soft beginning, and when they heard the forte, began at once to clap their hands."

So there we are: Mozart wrote the Paris Symphony expecting - and hoping for - voluble audience reaction throughout, while the music was playing just as surely as when it wasn't. His excitement at the event is palpable, not least the success of the little joke he played by beginning his finale so quietly as to provoke cries of "hush!" from more sensitive souls. That was Paris, of course, so maybe French Frank was there in person to join in the fun!

Would it have been fun to have been there? For many of us moderns, perhaps not. We prefer to sit in solemn silence, in a dull, dark dock.

But if it pleased Mozart...

[Master Jacques]

But enjoying the 'experience' of being at a live concert with others is not to be 'mixed up' with appreciating the music and the performance.

Some people (apparently) feel it's all part of one rich, multi-faceted experience, others may feel that the presence of others is just a necessary evil if you want to hear live music.

It's odd to hear something so memorable as a night out at the breathtakingly impressive Royal Albert Hall (no matter what the programme) described as a "necessary evil"!

How is it possible to avoid "mixing up" the "experience" with "appreciating the music and the performance"? It's just as true as it was for Mozart, that the performance itself is altered in a multitude of ways by the nature of the hall, the audience, the occasion, the mood of the performers, and a multitude of other factors - of which we, as members of that audience, are most certainly a part. "Communal" need not imply joining hands, smiling and shouting - a Trappist monastery is every bit as communal as a Roman Orgy - but it is an inescapable part of the experience.

How often have we heard the phrase "you had to be there"? There's a lot in it: the best performance experiences are - by definition - the communal ones. Otherwise "performance" is an empty concept.

[Zucchini]

It's odd to hear something so memorable as a night out at the breathtakingly impressive Royal Albert Hall (no matter what the programme) described as a "necessary evil"!
...
How often have we heard the phrase "you had to be there"? There's a lot in it: the best performance experiences are - by definition - the communal ones. Otherwise "performance" is an empty concept.

My attitude precisely (I'd just swap RAH for Symphony Hall!). If I'm engrossed in a fine live performance I automatically filter out extraneous noises - I cannot recall a single instance of being very seriously annoyed by a few microseconds of intrusion.

I get no pleasure from sitting in an armchair listening to synthetic, engineered and patched together recordings by dead people. For me, recordings are little more than calling cards for (young) artists and works I might want to hear live.

Being part of an expectant and appreciative audience in any venue is a wonderful thing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I get no pleasure from sitting in an armchair listening to synthetic, engineered and patched together recordings by dead people.

Interesting point, pumpkin - but then why listen to Music by "dead people"? Why not extend the principle and regard the Music of Beethoven, Bach, Stravinsky, Dunstable etc etc etc as "little more than calling cards for [the works of] (young) composers you might want to hear Live"? (And why the parenthetical "young", by the way? What's with the gerontophobia*?)

Being part of an expectant and appreciative audience in any venue is a wonderful thing.

... but the attitudes to what defines "expectant and appreciative" is the core of this Thread, rather than record collections - this comment doesn't really add to it.

* = or should that be "gerascophobia"?

[french frank]

My ... (I'd ). ... I'm ... I ... - I ....

I ... For me ... I ...

Being part of an expectant and appreciative audience in any venue is a wonderful thing.

You're expressing a personal viewpoint here, are you?

[MrGongGong]

It's odd to hear something so memorable as a night out at the breathtakingly impressive Royal Albert Hall (no matter what the programme) described as a "necessary evil"!

.

I think (put rather simplistically) some people don't like people.
Some people don't like the idea of other people sharing the music they love because they feel they somehow "own it".
This is partly what Gillian Moore was talking about.
Now some folks jump to conclusions and suggest that those of us who like to be with other human beings listening to music are suggesting that it's somehow fine to make phone calls during the 'boring' bits or orchestral concerts, BUT no-one is suggesting that at all.

Again, there has been a lot of thinking about "listening strategies" in the field of electroacoustic music studies.
And Chris Small has much to say about these things.

BUT (again) most "Classical Music Lovers" aren't really interested in this at all preferring to ignore it and carry on discussing everything but the aesthetics of music.

[french frank]

Now some folks jump to conclusions and suggest that those of us who like to be with other human beings listening to music are suggesting that it's somehow fine to make phone calls during the 'boring' bits or orchestral concerts, BUT no-one is suggesting that at all.

I rather gathered people (not necessarily in this discussion here) were suggesting that to glance disapprovingly at other people's behaviour would be 'off-putting' to new concert-goers.

And, as you're fond of saying, the context is important. It is possible, for example, that you are less concerned with the formal concert hall 'context' where the audience has gone to listen to 'core classical' repertoire, often with mega-celebrated international performers whom they would seldom have the opportunity to hear.

[MrGongGong]

I rather gathered people (not necessarily in this discussion here) were suggesting that to glance disapprovingly at other people's behaviour would be 'off-putting' to new concert-goers.

And, as you're fond of saying, the context is important. It is possible, for example, that you are less concerned with the formal concert hall 'context' where the audience has gone to listen to 'core classical' repertoire, often with mega-celebrated international performers whom they would seldom have the opportunity to hear.

You seem to like to tell me about what I am concerned about.

[french frank]

You seem to like to tell me about what I am concerned about.

That is a slightly hostile interpretation of what I actually said: not telling you anything at all but, as you have quoted, suggesting a possibility. You can tell me that, while possible, it is nevertheless quite mistaken.

Whereas your 'partner in crime' Beefy reveals the fact that he goes with some regularity to such concerts to hear such repertoire (and on that basis he has his own views about what should/should not be 'allowable' in terms of audience behaviour), you seldom join in any of the available topics on what most would think of as 'classical music' (other than on the Dream of Gerontius). And that is quite all right. You don't have to. But it does mean that we are justified in interpreting your comments on the subject of 'core classical' concerts as coming from someone who seldom/never goes to such concerts and has little interest in going. And that would make a difference.

[MrGongGong]

you seldom join in any of the available topics on what most would think of as 'classical music' (other than on the Dream of Gerontius). And that is quite all right. You don't have to. But it does mean that we are justified in interpreting your comments on the subject of 'core classical' concerts as coming from someone who seldom/never goes to such concerts and has little interest in going. And that would make a difference.

You said this before I think
and you are simply wrong about it

[french frank]

You said this before I think
and you are simply wrong about it

Indeed I have said it before. But I'm only pointing out that judging from your copious comments on the forum on a multitude of topics, much of it about the music you listen to, you seldom if ever(?) mention any sort of interest in anything that might be described as 'core' classical music - the sort of music, in short, that forms the basis of the Proms, orchestral concerts and chamber recitals.

I'm not suggesting you ought to like it (or that other musical tastes are not equally valid), but that it might reflect on the comments you make about those who do enjoy that kind of music, which seem frequently to be … contrarian; as in this thread, for instance, and its predecessor. That would seem to be significant for someone who maintains the importance of 'context', part of the 'context' in which the value of your opinions are to be interpreted.

[teamsaint]

as the real" applause" thread is closed, and I thought this was interesting, I have posted this here.

Jazz folks will know about this, in which Charles Mingus apparently asks for no applause, or other extraneous noise during the set. he asks this right at the beginning, and then asks for no applause again after the second number.
It seems that this in fact may not have really been a" Live" performance at all,rather a studio recording, but I'm sure Jazz persons can clear this up.
Not sure what point this really makes, but interesting nonetheless.

( and the first piece is well worth a listen anyway.)