You had to be there

[Daniel]

As usual, jlw, very insightful.

Agreed, if only all reviewers wrote so clearly about such things.

I was recently listening to Sokolov playing Beethoven Eb Piano Sonata Op.7 Naive (he only ever records live). The piano is recorded at a certain distance as if one is in the audience, a sound I very much like, as it gives the impression of listening to the music unedited. And of course (as Jayne says far more eloquently) it is all impressions.

What every listener is trying to do is connect with the music and the musicians, respond to them, or to keep those responses fresh.

That pretty much sums it up.

And the way one does connect varies so much. There are odd times when hearing something lo-fi can even improve that connection for me, something to do with the imagination I think. Though I don't imagine that's a feeling you'd relate to too often.

[pastoralguy]

I remember being in a cd shop in Milan some years ago and having one of the most intense musical experiences of my life simply by hearing Mozart's 40th through a pair of much used headphones. Obviously, it was just the mood I was in but, having bought the cd, it never had that effect on me again. In fact, I'm struggling to remember which cd it was!

[jayne lee wilson]

I remember being in a cd shop in Milan some years ago and having one of the most intense musical experiences of my life simply by hearing Mozart's 40th through a pair of much used headphones. Obviously, it was just the mood I was in but, having bought the cd, it never had that effect on me again. In fact, I'm struggling to remember which cd it was!

Yes, if you hear a piece on a kitchen radio, in a film, a car or a shop, an unfamiliar setting - the spontaneity, the unexpectedness of it can suddenly grab you emotionally. It's our old friend de-familiarisation at work...
Laid up in bed a few years ago I turned on Radio 3 on the bedside FM radio - it was the passacaglia from the DSCH 1st Violin Concerto... I was soon in tears, even though I'd largely given up on replaying the piece because it seemed... too familiar ...

(Of course, it didn't hurt that the radio was a Tivoli Model One......)

[Dave2002]

Re the RAH acoustics, a lot depends on where you stand or sit. It's a very big hall. Some parts are a long way from the orchestra, which then sounds quiet, and sitting too far to the left or right can unbalance the sound. Also, in some parts, and in some pieces, the reverberation really does mess things up, for example in fast piano concerto movements, the echo can make each piano note sound twice, thus giving a really pacy effect. High up in the circle sometimes the echos conpletely shift the apparent direction of some brass instruments. Also, up there the organ can completely drown out the orchestra.

Despite (in spite of) all these oddities, the sound in the hall can be very impressive, and generally is much better than listening to a recording or radio broadcast.

[EdgeleyRob]

Of course in a perfect world I would rather be there more often than not.
Some of the reviews from people in the hall however suggest that quite often the better listening experience was to be had at home.
Attending a Prom is still on my bucket list.

[Anastasius]

.....The engineer and hifi writer John Crabbe spent his life trying to create a system that could do at least some justice to the Grande Messe...
Whether he achieved it, or felt that he had... I've no idea. ....

I was very fortunate to be invited to hear his concrete horns at his home. They certainly sounded very impressive but no comparison to the real thing. I do agree with you that the musicality of a performance can transcend all the deficiencies and distractions of listening to recorded sound by whatever means. For me, I know that it has 'happened' as I just have to stop what I am doing out in the workshop and simply listen and enjoy what is on - rare though that is but perhaps the rarity makes it even more enjoyable.

Digressing slightly there was wonderful spoof article in Wireless World many years ago by a George Izzard O'Veering who sought to capture the dynamic range of the concert hall but in his living room. The article went back to first principles, passing through titanium coned loudspeakers to using the central heating radiators as heatsinks for the amplifiers. No CDs in those days and so acoustic feedback to the record deck was always a problem, solved by locating the record player down the garden in the potting shed. It was important, though, to remember to turn the volume down before lowering the stylus otherwise the windows had a tendency to blow out.

[Anastasius]

..... Also, up there the organ can completely drown out the orchestra.

....

I'm glad you mentioned that as when I was at the Leifs Organ Concerto and down in the Arena front rail, I was very disappointed by the sound level from the organ compared to the sound level at performances of other works involving it that I'd heard in the past but seated elsewhere in the RAH.

[Anastasius]

Of course in a perfect world I would rather be there more often than not.
Some of the reviews from people in the hall however suggest that quite often the better listening experience was to be had at home.
Attending a Prom is still on my bucket list.

Now there's a thread!

"If you only went to the RAH to hear one piece of music live then what would it be and where would one sit/stand? "

[pureimagination]

Re the RAH acoustics, a lot depends on where you stand or sit. It's a very big hall. Some parts are a long way from the orchestra, which then sounds quiet, and sitting too far to the left or right can unbalance the sound. Also, in some parts, and in some pieces, the reverberation really does mess things up, for example in fast piano concerto movements, the echo can make each piano note sound twice, thus giving a really pacy effect. High up in the circle sometimes the echos conpletely shift the apparent direction of some brass instruments. Also, up there the organ can completely drown out the orchestra.

Despite (in spite of) all these oddities, the sound in the hall can be very impressive, and generally is much better than listening to a recording or radio broadcast.

I would agree totally with Dave 2002. At Prom 70 during the Rachmaninov Piano 2 from where I sat the piano was sometimes lost under the orchestra. At the Sherlock Prom the narration (headset mic relayed to speakers at front of stage) was muddy and echoey. I tend to sit in the same area for all concerts I attend at the RAH (close enough to the performers and generally excellent sound). Certain pieces/instruments will sound different depending where you sit. Several years ago at the Mahler Symphony 2 Prom with Dudamel conducting there was a moment when the sound of the double basses whacked me in the chest that made the concert even more memorable (in a good way).
On the negative side (one last grumble about a favourite forum subject) you can hear quite clearly all the inappropriate sounds (coughs etc) from way across the auditorium.
Listening at home is certainly a varied experience (source, engineers mix, emotional involvement etc). with Prom 75 Elgar's Dream of Gerontius I felt that Magdalena Kožená voice was less sharp/forward in the mix compared to the male voices that it spoilt an otherwise excellent listen/experience.

I would really recommend attending a live concert (at the RAH or anywhere else for that matter) to keep live performance alive. With the case of the Proms go to a live performance and then listen again later on the best audio source you have.

[doversoul1]

I would really recommend attending a live concert (at the RAH or anywhere else for that matter) to keep live performance alive. With the case of the Proms go to a live performance and then listen again later on the best audio source you have.

May I remind you that many of us who do not attend the Proms, or any live concerts for that matter, rarely do this (not to attend) by choice.

[pureimagination]

May I remind you that many of us who do not attend the Proms, or any live concerts for that matter, rarely do this (not to attend) by choice.

My exact thought after I'd posted. Nevertheless I'm sure all who post here would encourage those that can to hear music live. We just have to ensure that it's accessible to all regardless of age, gender, ability, etc and that barriers to this are stripped gradually away.

...and blame EdgeleyRob for titling this thread 'You had to be there'!!

[jayne lee wilson]

I was very fortunate to be invited to hear his concrete horns at his home. They certainly sounded very impressive but no comparison to the real thing. I do agree with you that the musicality of a performance can transcend all the deficiencies and distractions of listening to recorded sound by whatever means. For me, I know that it has 'happened' as I just have to stop what I am doing out in the workshop and simply listen and enjoy what is on - rare though that is but perhaps the rarity makes it even more enjoyable.

Digressing slightly there was wonderful spoof article in Wireless World many years ago by a George Izzard O'Veering who sought to capture the dynamic range of the concert hall but in his living room. The article went back to first principles, passing through titanium coned loudspeakers to using the central heating radiators as heatsinks for the amplifiers. No CDs in those days and so acoustic feedback to the record deck was always a problem, solved by locating the record player down the garden in the potting shed. It was important, though, to remember to turn the volume down before lowering the stylus otherwise the windows had a tendency to blow out.

It's precisely that "comparison to the real thing" that whilst unavoidable, can lead us astray.
So often it focusses on the biggest and grandest of musical works which could only be approached in simulation by a huge speaker system in a hall-sized space.

It isn't so much a lack in hifi or reproduced sound itself as in the scale, the space. But for me this is offset by the potential greater immediacy of sound and emotional connection with smaller-scale works, from Beethoven's orchestra "downwards" into chamber ensembles. But the culture of listening to Recorded (or broadcast) Music - my musical roots - is distinct and rich in itself. "Alike yet different" to live concerts - but with many advantages, not the least of which is the exploration of rare repertoire, not to mention the absence of various annoyances and distractions in concert halls! I only attended the RLPO live with any frequency; perhaps I was unlucky, but after many disappointments with smaller-scale works, I came to prefer the Home Concert Hall for anything classical including Beethoven, and the distractions were a problem! (If amusing in recollection...)

As we see from various evocations here, the "aural imagination" can compensate for much too (including the lack, or limitations , of high-end equipment itself...).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's precisely that "comparison to the real thing" that whilst unavoidable, can lead us astray.
So often it focusses on the biggest and grandest of musical works which could only be approached in simulation by a huge speaker system in a hall-sized space.

It isn't so much a lack in hifi or reproduced sound itself as in the scale, the space. But for me this is offset by the potential greater immediacy of sound and emotional connection with smaller-scale works, from Beethoven's orchestra "downwards" into chamber ensembles. But the culture of listening to Recorded (or broadcast) Music - my musical roots - is distinct and rich in itself. "Alike yet different" to live concerts - but with many advantages, not the least of which is the exploration of rare repertoire, not to mention the absence of various annoyances and distractions in concert halls! I only attended the RLPO live with any frequency; perhaps I was unlucky, but after many disappointments with smaller-scale works, I came to prefer the Home Concert Hall for anything classical including Beethoven, and the distractions were a problem! (If amusing in recollection...)

As we see from various evocations here, the "aural imagination" can compensate for much too (including the lack, or limitations , of high-end equipment itself...).

I agree totally with all of this.


And I LOVE the idea of "concrete loudspeakers"!

[teamsaint]

And Jayne's fascinating post post leads inevitably to the question of why people continue to go to listen to music live, when the alternatives can be so attractive.
For the average cost of a ticket to a live concert, travel, parking, mini tub of ice cream, ( lets call it a conservative £50), you can buy a top notch CD at full price, a good bottle of wine, M and S dinner, and cash left over.
No coughing , scratching neighbours, no tall bloke sitting in front of you ruining the view,no dodgy acoustic, no Queue for the ladies ( for the ladies !), etc etc.

Makes you wonder really. Listening to music live has always been absolutely central to my enjoyment of music, but I don't think I have ever really thought about why.

For me, I guess the core of it is that I love experiencing live performance, seeing, witnessing the extraordinary things that people can do. I never tire of seeing somebody perform their own songs, or play at an incredible level of professionalism, or see talented performers in any field. It just isn't the same on the TV.
and then there is sheer curiosity. Will this be that special night, game, performance? If I hadn't have had the good fortune to make it to last Thursday's Prom, I still wouldn't know what the VPO REALLY sound like....even with the RAH acoustic ....my curiosity at least partially satisfied.
And then there is the learning process. maybe its the cheats way, ( the stony but rewarding path being to follow Ferney's Bruckner posts), but I always come out of a live even having learned ( I feel) much more than I ( and we aren't all the same) would have done in the same time with a recording.
and maybe the disappointments are part of the whole learning experience. If there wasn't losing as well as the winning, nobody would ever go to football. Got to know the lows, to enjoy the highs.

[Anastasius]

I agree totally with all of this.


And I LOVE the idea of "concrete loudspeakers"!

In which case you might enjoy this website !

http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/hi-fi,%20diy%20projects.htm

And here is George's article http://sound.westhost.com/dynamic-range.htm