"The right to bare arms" and the Elder"states"man.

[LHC]

In 2010 the Vienna Philharmonic's solution to this conundrum was to have a 'uniform' designed for its lady members. The suits now worn by the ladies echoes those worn by the men, but is styled for women; the design incorporates a curvy black jacket, pinstripe trousers, a grey cutaway waistcoat and crisp white shirt. The designer (a Viennese fashion student who won a competition to design the uniform) chose trousers rather than a skirt to provide freedom of movement.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In 2010 the Vienna Philharmonic's solution to this conundrum was to have a 'uniform' designed for its lady members.

What? Both of them???!!!

[Zucchini]

For sweaty men:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/19/arts/music/taking-the-starch-out-of-orchestra-attire.html

[Flosshilde]

How disappointing - I thought it was going to be a website for people with 'specialised' tastes

[Tony Halstead]

I wonder though, how many performers in the top league orchestras, or any orchestras for that matter, are willing to give up their suit of armour. Come to think of it, I rather enjoy watching an orchestra in full force formally dressed, playing a large orchestral work. It gives a sense of occasion. Even in early music, where things are less formal, I wouldn’t want to see the performers looking as if they’d just walked out from a rehearsal. As in any (or most) jobs, dressing up or smartening oneself up is an act of showing respect to the work and the people involved. If the performers themselves have no objections, I don’t think it is an issue, both for men and women. I imagine air conditionings and many new wonder fabrics make things a lot easier for performers these days.

Please note my 'bold and underlined' text...if that is indeed the case then perhaps you are a sadist...?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please note my 'bold and underlined' text...if that is indeed the case then perhaps you are a sadist...?

Many years ago, when I took my LRAM exam, I played Beethoven's Sonata Pathétique. As it took place at the RAM, I was somewhat awestruck, and played in a smart suit. Unfortunately, the frequent rapid crossing of hands in the first movement caused my cuffs to collide more than once and I became flustered. I failed the exam on that occasion, and when I resat some time later, I made sure I wasn't wearing a jacket, and this made a huge difference.

However, I now sing in a chamber choir. In some concerts, we have been asked to dress moderately casually - open-neck shirts, etc., and we look and feel rather tatty, and have persuaded the powers that be that we prefer formal dress in most circumstances.

[Hornspieler]

However, I now sing in a chamber choir. In some concerts, we have been asked to dress moderately casually - open-neck shirts, etc., and we look and feel rather tatty, and have persuaded the powers that be that we prefer formal dress in most circumstances.

Yes. But that does not give license to mount a mannequin parade, and it is unfair to the more elderly ladies in the orchestra
(who are often among the most experienced and valuable members of an orchestra)

To quote from my own "Bravo Maestro":

" ... a symphony orchestra is a great social leveller. It is not unusual to see a Duke's daughter turning over the pages for a dustman's son"

A dress code ensures that nobody should attempt to outdo their fellow musicians.

HS.

[doversoul1]

Hornspieler:

You seem to be saying that women in orchestras:

1. have no choice at all as to what they wear
2. attempt to outdo their fellow musicians over what they wear

And who is mounting a mannequin parade: the women or the management?

I find all these rather incredulous this day and age, and why aren’t you concerned more with men who clearly have no choice whatsoever when it comes to what to wear? Or would they attempt to outdo their fellow members by wearing ever more expensive designer suit and bright coloured socks if they were given choice?

Tony #20

Please note my 'bold and underlined' text...if that is indeed the case then perhaps you are a sadist...?

Well, I am quite insensitive to heat myself ….

[Stanfordian]

Hornspieler:

You seem to be saying that women in orchestras:

1. have no choice at all as to what they wear
2. attempt to outdo their fellow musicians over what they wear

And who is mounting a mannequin parade: the women or the management?

I find all these rather incredulous this day and age, and why aren’t you concerned more with men who clearly have no choice whatsoever when it comes to what to wear? Or would they attempt to outdo their fellow members by wearing ever more expensive designer suit and bright coloured socks if they were given choice?

Tony #20


Well, I am quite insensitive to heat myself ….

Hello Doversole,

I suppose the point is with orchestral players men wear the same clothing whilst women are able to wear a mixture of clothing. With people's diverse taste I must admit it often looks messy combination. I believe it looks more professional when the clothing is uniform.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes. But that does not give license to mount a mannequin parade, and it is unfair to the more elderly ladies in the orchestra
(who are often among the most experienced and valuable members of an orchestra)

To quote from my own "Bravo Maestro":

" ... a symphony orchestra is a great social leveller. It is not unusual to see a Duke's daughter turning over the pages for a dustman's son"

A dress code ensures that nobody should attempt to outdo their fellow musicians.

HS.

Agreed. My two examples showed both the practical and aesthetic sides of the argument.

[Hornspieler]

Hornspieler:

You seem to be saying that women in orchestras:

1. are requited to bare their arms
2. attempt to outdo their fellow musicians over what they wear

And who is mounting a mannequin parade: the women or the management?

I find all these rather incredulous this day and age, and why aren’t you concerned more with men who clearly have no choice whatsoever when it comes to what to wear? Or would they attempt to outdo their fellow members by wearing ever more expensive designer suit and bright coloured socks if they were given choice?

A dress code for the men ensures that every man on the platform look alike - whether they bought their tail coats, dinner jackets or for daytime concerts, churches and cathedrals, "morning dress suits" (ie: Pin stripe trousers, Black Jacket, white shirt and silvergrey tie) secondhand from Wallers or West End Misfits in Soho, or made to measure in Saville Row.

There are occasions when all members of the orchestra are encouraged to wear anything bright and colourful (within the limits of decency!)

It is generally accepted that all the musicians on stage should wear black outfits, whether they be suits or dresses.

We could argue about this all day (as do some orchestra members) but the sight of all that bare flesh last weekend raises the point that there needs to be a little thought and restraint in what should be the customary limits.

Women want to play in orchestras. I fully agree that they should; but at least a token of moderation of dress would do their cause no harm.
I am well aware that a large number of valued lady members of our orchestras hold the same opinion as my self in the matter of suitable attire for concert ware.

HS

Remember Eileen Joyce? Green for Grieg and Blue for Beethoven? Let's not go there, ladies.

[Lat-Literal]

Thank you to Tony for his comments. It has been interesting to read the comments which broadly seem to convey that women are more relaxed about what men wear than men are. Perhaps contexts matter. I feel that when the City introduced dress down Fridays it was just another symbol of its increasing arrogance which ultimately had very negative impacts on almost everybody. It was adopted to an extent in the public sector too and while to use one of the very worst phrases "we all did it" it never felt less than slovenly.

Contrast with hot meeting rooms in Geneva in July when most of the men from Southern Europe would arrive in smart tailored suits and open necked shirts seemingly relaxed. Everyone else - one might call those the Atlanticists - kept to their notions of formality feeling grumpy because they couldn't control the temperature along with everything else. It wasn't the former who looked dishevelled. While it is the climate I am mentioning here, I doubt it should be as literal in terms of music. Surely there it is more about the environment in its entirety and what is wanting to be conveyed. Who is performing? What is being performed? Where is it being performed? For what purpose? To use another analogy, I don't like it when at Wimbledon there are variations on all white but it isn't a terrible thing to have colour in other areas of tennis including on recreation grounds.

[doversoul1]

Hornspieler:
You could be saying that men are allowed to dress formally but women are not. This is almost as anachronistic as saying that women are not allowed to play in orchestras unless they disguise themselves as men.

However, as you seem to assume that the reaction to bare arms /the bare arms is the universal and not merely your personal reaction, yes, I agree that this discussion has no point.

[Richard Tarleton]

A couple of thoughts:

It seems in part to be a question of layers - men seem to be expected to wear more layers than women, which seems unjust.

Nobody (and there must be some experts here) has discussed the question of fabrics. Wool, cotton, linen, artificial - all behave differently in heat, and with perspiration. There are some fine high-tech wicking fabrics about - that wick moisture away from the body - but they seem to be used mainly in sports and outdoor pursuits applications.

Open-necked shirts for men? There are some beautifully-dressed string quartets about....The Sixteen.....

Julian Bream has said he and John Williams spent as much time discussing what to wear as practising, when they were playing together. He was more a soup and fish man, Williams into Indian cotton prints with Nehru collars and natty polo necks....

[doversoul1]

A couple of thoughts:

Nobody (and there must be some experts here) has discussed the question of fabrics. Wool, cotton, linen, artificial - all behave differently in heat, and with perspiration. There are some fine high-tech wicking fabrics about - that wick moisture away from the body - but they seem to be used mainly in sports and outdoor pursuits applications.

#15

I imagine air conditionings and many new wonder fabrics make things a lot easier for performers these days

.