"The right to bare arms" and the Elder"states"man.

[Hornspieler]

No. This is not about American politics - it is about last nights TV coverage of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra playing Prokofiev's 5th symphony.

The Right to Bare Arms

Throughout my professional career, I have fought for equality of opportunity for women to secure employment in orchestras on merit alone. I am happy to say that at last, even the Berlin Symphony and Vienna symphony orchestras have relaxed that dreadful "no women here" policy.
When Sir Thomas Beecham was asked "why no women in your orchestra" he replied "Well, if they're good-looking , they distract the men and if they are ugly, they distract me"

Do you remember the Kathleen Riddick Orchestra? Formed for all those talented ladies who were barred from the LSO and other major symphony orchestras - and a jolly good outfit they were too.

So now emancipation is almost complete, ladies - but don't abuse it.
What would you think if the gentlemen of the Berlin Orchestra turned up at the proms wearing black singlets? "Rattle and the Blackshirts" (A good name for one of those boy bands)

So the ladies of our own BSO can stay cool in the summer heat of the Royal Albert Hall while the men swelter in dinner suits, tight collars and bow ties?

Last night, I counted 40 sets of bare shoulders - about 50% of the players kept their cool and with Prokofiev's fiendishly difficult writing for the upper strings, they needed to.

Let's have a dress code which can still allow the ladies to look attractive but does not distract or annoy the men and does not offer a cheap way of enhancing the programme by overdoing the camera shots of those pretty young ladies on the back desks..

The Elder"States" man].

One of the attractions for me of Russian Symphonies is the continuity of the movements. All joined together by little snippets from the other movements, right up to the finale.

The 5th symphonies of Tchaikowsky, Shostakovitch and Prokofiev all have this in common.

But the intervention of Mark Elder's musical appreciation lessons (on last night's TV) between movements completely destroyed that continuity which the composer intended.

I played all of those symphonies under Silvestri and am well aware of the complexities particularly of the Shostakovitch and Prokofiev, but in between movements is not the right place to explain them.

Well played, Bournemouth S.O.

Black mark for BBC Television.

Stick to what you do best - current affairs and drama.

HS

[Serial_Apologist]

.

Let's have a dress code which can still allow the ladies to look attractive but does not distract or annoy the men and does not offer a cheap way of enhancing the programme by overdoing the camera shots of those pretty young ladies on the back desks..

Well now... assuming this posting is supposed to be taken seriously, I wonder what "the ladies" who regularly contribute to this forum think. Are they allowed to be "distracted" by dress codes, regardless of the wearer's gender?

[Norrette]

I think the problem lies with the camera direction rather then the wearers.

Best I ever saw was the unisex uniform of a youth orchestra - was it the year before last? When they all wore red jeans/chinos...

[wenotsoira]

Re the O.P.

I agree about the elder statesman but the rest is B.S.

P S I love Bulls.

[BBMmk2]

I quite agree with HS, about his statement that the ladies of the orchestra, or small ensemble, should be attired suitably. If the men have to dress up like penguins, I am not saying that the ladies of the group should but merely offer a more suitable attire?

[doversoul1]

I always feel terribly sorry for those women who have to wear formal/evening dresses with bare arms and low necklines in the middle of winter while men are nicely wrapped up in tight collars and warm jackets.

P.S. This is one of the things I like about early music. In general, its performers, including conductors seem to wear whatever they feel most comfortable.

Hornspieler:
Does it really distract or annoy you enough to make it an issue to see women's bare arms? If it doesn’t bother you as a listener,/viewer does it matter whatever the performers are wearing? And are you seriously saying things like ‘ladies to look attractive’? You are not talking about what-its-name TV programme about dancing?

[Lat-Literal]

The Simon Bolivar Orchestra is a good yardstick but this is possibly the best dressed group of musical people I have ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt23wUNJeuI

I've viewed it about twenty times because everything about it is just brilliant.

[ahinton]

I've always thought that the original American expression had to do with the right to arm bears...

[Flosshilde]

Absolutely - the Ladies should wear long sleeves (attached to dresses, of course) so that their bingo wings don't flap about during sessions of vigorous bowing etc.

Seriously, why not have a uniform of loose shirts for all players, allowing freedom of movement, rather than constrained by tight jackets. And the conductors especially should be liberated from their jackets & waistcoats. It might spare us the spectacle of sweat dripping from their brow (or the end of their nose), and copious moppings between movements (far more distracting than applause).

[Tony Halstead]

Absolutely - the Ladies should wear long sleeves (attached to dresses, of course) so that their bingo wings don't flap about during sessions of vigorous bowing etc.

Seriously, why not have a uniform of loose shirts for all players, allowing freedom of movement, rather than constrained by tight jackets. And the conductors especially should be liberated from their jackets & waistcoats. It might spare us the spectacle of sweat dripping from their brow (or the end of their nose), and copious moppings between movements (far more distracting than applause).

I fully agree with Flosshilde.
As a brass player and an occasional conductor I would really welcome a relaxation of the dreadful 'white tie and tails' / 'dinner jacket & black bow tie' dress code for men. Only slim and rather tall men 'look good' in tails, IMV.

I very much liked the 'coloured top and black trousers' on the youtube clip cited by Lat-Literal. It took me back to the days when I used to deputise regularly with the London Sinfonietta, which ensemble sported exactly such a 'plain coloured top/ black trousers' uniform. ( Hmmm... 'uniform' - a contradiction in terms in such a setting of course )

[jayne lee wilson]

The problem, surely, is with male dress codes, which still provoke considerable agonising over summer wear today...

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/style/articles/2013-07/25/style-debate-shorts-mens-advice-patrick-grant-oliver-spencer

http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2015/apr/22/why-men-need-to-reclaim-their-right-to-wear-shorts-in-the-office-and-beyond

Look at Indian and African dress codes - totally different take on gender freedom.

I'm amazed that short-sleeved shirts and tailored shorts haven't become standards for male orchestral players in warmer climates. Remember those b/w striped shirts the LSO wore on Andre Previn's Music Night? They looked great. Why didn't the conventions move on? Some Classical performance traditions are valuable, but some are needlessly stuffy and hidebound.

It's the poor men that need liberating, not the women who need covering up. Victoriana, anyone?

[richardfinegold]

The issue here is dress codes in general. I am a profuse perspirer myself, and really glad that I don't have to work in a penguin suit under bright lights. I have a Blu Ray of Daniel Barenboim conducting and soloing in the 5 PCs of LvB and his sweating is terribly apparent on Blu Ray and very distracting.
I like the idea of a uniform instead of formal wear that someone mentioned upthread. I don't think that it is fitting for performers to be wearing whatever they feel like wearing--I don't care to see Hawaiian shirts and flip flops--but a uni sex uniform that allows the wearer to be comfortable makes the most sense, imo

Of course, Yuja Wang wouldn't have to wear it...

[french frank]

but a uni sex uniform that allows the wearer to be comfortable makes the most sense, imo

And in mine. The whole point of uniforms is that individuals within a set don't draw attention to themselves for what they're wearing.

[Hornspieler]

I fully agree with Flosshilde.
As a brass player and an occasional conductor I would really welcome a relaxation of the dreadful 'white tie and tails' / 'dinner jacket & black bow tie' dress code for men. Only slim and rather tall men 'look good' in tails, IMV.

I very much liked the 'coloured top and black trousers' on the youtube clip cited by Lat-Literal. It took me back to the days when I used to deputise regularly with the London Sinfonietta, which ensemble sported exactly such a 'plain coloured top/ black trousers' uniform. ( Hmmm... 'uniform' - a contradiction in terms in such a setting of course )

Some very good suggestions here. I was not trying to promote dissent and I acknowledge the reactions of all the contribitors but here is a problem which is in need of sorting out once and for all.

In the days when the BBC symphony orchestra was the proms, I played for them on several occasions.**

White tie and tails! In the heat of summer, our starched white waistcoats were saturated with perspiration and became like soggy blotting paper. No wonder that the orchestra dreaded the Proms season!

When I joined the Bournemouth orchestra in 1958, along with my young wife, my sister gave her a lovely black off-the-shoulder evening dress to wear for her first concert.
During the interval, she was taken on one side and told that bare shoulders were not allowed on the platform, which ruined her evening and could have been more subtly put. There were actually twelve married couples in the orchestra at that time and some of the wives looked as if they had just come ashore from a fishing trawler! An extreme in the opposite direction.
So the rule became "cover the shoulders, or wear trousers like the men with a black top if you prefer the extra freedom of movement"

Everyone was happy. The olderlady .members felt secure and the younger ones stopped competing with each other.

There is no reason why the men should be constrained to wear jackets in the hot weather it's an out-of-date custom, which is made more stupid when the conductor turns up wearing a shapeless T-shirt.

Regarding the "Elder Statesman", my remarks stand. His presence on someone else's Prom given by another conductor is an intrusion.

Thank you all for your well thought replies.

HS

** BTW When I was working occasionally with the BBC Symphony Orchestra and Paul Beard was the Leader under Sir Malcolm Sargent, I asked some of the older members who they thought was the best Leader that they had played under.

Their reply was unanimous "Marie Wilson"

So much for Male Prejudice

[doversoul1]

I wonder though, how many performers in the top league orchestras, or any orchestras for that matter, are willing to give up their suit of armour. Come to think of it, I rather enjoy watching an orchestra in full force formally dressed, playing a large orchestral work. It gives a sense of occasion. Even in early music, where things are less formal, I wouldn’t want to see the performers looking as if they’d just walked out from a rehearsal. As in any (or most) jobs, dressing up or smartening oneself up is an act of showing respect to the work and the people involved. If the performers themselves have no objections, I don’t think it is an issue, both for men and women. I imagine air conditionings and many new wonder fabrics make things a lot easier for performers these days.