'Last of the Proms'?

[french frank]

It's surely unlike Norman to be so pessimistic in search of a headline-grabbing article?

I don't know whether comparing the Proms with football is all that helpful.

I think his point was merely to underline the relatively tiny cost of Radio 3 (=Proms) and the orchestras - and thus largely undermine his own argument. That legendary useless civil servant now in overall control has stated categorically that he is not under any pressure to shut down an orchestra - and why should he be when the BBC has billion pound spenders who could find that money in two minutes?

I have been going to the Proms for about 20 years and I feel sometimes that things need a bit of a shake-up, but hopefully by someone with vision and sympathy for the arts, not a faceless bean counter. I don't, for example, find the visits of jet-lagged international orchestras struggling with the RAH acoustic as interesting as I used to. I go to far more concerts in that 2 months than I ever do for the rest of the year, but even a fan like me recognises that just putting on a series of (mostly regular reportoire) concerts might not be a long-term option. Getting commerce involved however, would be a disaster, and I hope we will avoid that particular black hole.

My view is that the Proms have expanded beyond their optimal size. There have been real gems this year - which haven't been the most costly. I think the extension to family Proms - even 'starter Proms' - is fine. I see no point whatsoever in featuring concerts which aren't principally classical (by which I mean, I suppose, those which are going to grab all the Proms headlines). Sponsorship - as I said above - has been ruled out by the BBC Trust as a principle, though mainly in relation to sport.

[Darkbloom]

There are a few ideas that might have made some sense a few decades ago but have long since gone past their sell-by date. The one I am thinking of mainly is the way they sneak a contemporary piece into a concert that features a popular favourite in the second half.

The Proms should be an ideal place to try something new. I wonder whether they couldn't get a handful of composers to accept Proms commissions, but on the understanding that they would be working under certain conditions: a maximum orchestra size, limited percussion (always the fatal catnip for composers of today, I find) and length of the piece (20 mins max). Then they would receive a text to set, or be given a subject to work with. The idea would be that it isn't a competition, but a chance to hear how different composers approached the same problems in different ways. Unless you happen to be a fan of a given composer on the night, you often sit/stand there in vague bafflement waiting for the thing to end, struggling to grasp any sense of their particular idiom. In this case, we would have some idea of what was going on, and it might even stir up some discussion and enliven the contemporary music world a little bit. It might even be rather fun.

I know there is more than a trace of vulgarity about the idea, but I think the Proms should be the place for things like that, and not just the umpteenth opportunity to hear Mahler 5.

[Roehre]

....

The Proms should be an ideal place to try something new. I wonder whether they couldn't get a handful of composers to accept Proms commissions, but on the understanding that they would be working under certain conditions: a maximum orchestra size, limited percussion (always the fatal catnip for composers of today, I find) and length of the piece (20 mins max). Then they would receive a text to set, or be given a subject to work with. The idea would be that it isn't a competition, but a chance to hear how different composers approached the same problems in different ways. Unless you happen to be a fan of a given composer on the night, you often sit/stand there in vague bafflement waiting for the thing to end, struggling to grasp any sense of their particular idiom. In this case, we would have some idea of what was going on, and it might even stir up some discussion and enliven the contemporary music world a little bit. It might even be rather fun.

I know there is more than a trace of vulgarity about the idea, but I think the Proms should be the place for things like that, and not just the umpteenth opportunity to hear Mahler 5.

That would be a concert I most definitely would listen to live on R3, or for which I would travel to London even

[Serial_Apologist]

That would be a concert I most definitely would listen to live on R3, or for which I would travel to London even

Me too (apart from already being in London, of course).

[french frank]

No response from Norman yet, but another poster has replied to mine:

"I have it on good authority that Wright’s sudden resignation – timed to cause as much trouble to the 2014 season as possible – was a reaction to being forced to sign off the Radio 1, 1Xtra, 6 Music and Asian Network proms for this season, concerts that he had neither planned nor supported himself and which were foisted on him by the upper echelons of BBC management.

Norman is right to say that the Controller of the Proms no longer has control of the Proms, and only wrong to imply that this happened after Wright’s departure (although the complete spinelessness of the current incumbent won’t have helped). Wright attempted to fight it and lost; Pickard will not be able to, having bought into the situation by accepting the job."

An intriguing thought, but (in spite of having mention the possibility that Roger 'caved in'), I'm not sure that I believe it. I'm sure the 'upper echelons' were delighted with the idea, but isn't the same as saying they forced it on him.

But by all means let's have it out in the open

[doversoul1]

There are a few ideas that might have made some sense a few decades ago but have long since gone past their sell-by date. The one I am thinking of mainly is the way they sneak a contemporary piece into a concert that features a popular favourite in the second half.

The Proms should be an ideal place to try something new. I wonder whether they couldn't get a handful of composers to accept Proms commissions, but on the understanding that they would be working under certain conditions: a maximum orchestra size, limited percussion (always the fatal catnip for composers of today, I find) and length of the piece (20 mins max). Then they would receive a text to set, or be given a subject to work with. The idea would be that it isn't a competition, but a chance to hear how different composers approached the same problems in different ways. Unless you happen to be a fan of a given composer on the night, you often sit/stand there in vague bafflement waiting for the thing to end, struggling to grasp any sense of their particular idiom. In this case, we would have some idea of what was going on, and it might even stir up some discussion and enliven the contemporary music world a little bit. It might even be rather fun.

I know there is more than a trace of vulgarity about the idea, but I think the Proms should be the place for things like that, and not just the umpteenth opportunity to hear Mahler 5.

The idea is not new. Something similar seemed to have worked very well back in 1601 , so why not in 2015 plus?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04gjz1q

[Zucchini]

It means that if Sainsbury's hand over a nice chunk of cash to the BBC to use as it wishes, the BBC will tolerate putting a lower audience programme on mainstream television. No cash, no programme.]

It is utterly inconceivable that Danny Cohen would accept brown envelopes full of cash to be used however he wishes, in return for featuring the donor(s) in prime airtime on his major channels. It's a ridiculous thought.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It is utterly inconceivable that Danny Cohen would accept brown envelopes full of cash to be used however he wishes, in return for featuring the donor(s) in prime airtime on his major channels. It's a ridiculous thought.

Do you have inside knowledge to confirm this?

[french frank]

It is utterly inconceivable that Danny Cohen would accept brown envelopes full of cash to be used however he wishes, in return for featuring the donor(s) in prime airtime on his major channels. It's a ridiculous thought.

Of course it's ridiculous. It all happened before Danny Cohen had anything to do with it. Probably still at Channel 4. Really, Zucchini.

There was an edit to my post hours before you posted your last. Did you not see it? Sainbury's were seemingly getting free 'advertising' on television, by sponsoring Sainsbury's Choir of the Year. When the decision was taken to drop the programme from BBC Two and for Radio 3 to take it on, Sainsbury's pulled out because it wasn't worth bothering 'advertising' on Radio 3.

As the list of winners shows, in 2004 it officially became Radio 3 Choir of the Year.\

http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/188da680f30d41279936d63db2018cd8

[Zucchini]

Quote Originally Posted by Zucchini:
"It is utterly inconceivable that Danny Cohen would accept brown envelopes full of cash to be used however he wishes [you said it], in return for featuring the donor(s) in prime airtime on his major channels. It's a ridiculous thought."

Of course it's ridiculous. It all happened before Danny Cohen had anything to do with it. Probably still at Channel 4. Really, Zucchini.

I was making a general comment, not a specific one about Sainsbury. But I accept that it would have been more easily understood if I had said "Danny Cohen for example" or "a Senior Suit".

[kernelbogey]

[...]it wasn't worth bothering 'advertising' on Radio 3. [...]

Extraordinarily short-sighted marketing policy: I listen to Radio Three, and don't shop at Sainsbury's.