Applause....I know, I know..........

[french frank]

The point may have been put forward, but pointed out? No.I consider it specious.Rain, for instance can be very annoying at times, but it's absence in drought would be far more so.

Possibly specious? In drought, few people would be 'annoyed' by rain. Why would they be?

What's true is that people, especially en masse, have become much more volatile, emotional (indiscreet)?, clamorous than they once were, much less aware of other people's 'space' and much less willing to respect it (quiet coach, anyone?). I think it's probably a combination of all these things that for some people makes it 'spontaneous'/'instinctive' to respond to their natural reactions, to applaud when the stimulus demands it. Programmed by the changes in society?

[maestro267]

Surely a not missing here, maestro?
(Before the interrupted, that is!)

Indeed. Duly corrected.

[jean]

The point may have been put forward, but pointed out? No.I consider it specious.Rain, for instance can be very annoying at times, but it's absence in drought would be far more so.

A very poor analogy.

Rain is a natural phenomenon. Nobody (except God) has any control over whether it happens or it doesn't, so there's not much point in discussing in what circumstances anyone might refrain from it, nor the quality of the pleasure they might gain from producing it, or lose from not producing it. The absence of rain cannot be equated with the absence of freedom to applaud whenever one wants to, because there is no individual to whom freedom-to-rain might apply.

I was talking about things which people do which may disturb other people. And I maintain that the people who are disturbed by things that other people do to them are more disturbed than the people who are constrained by whatever pressures NOT to do those things are disturbed by not being free to do them.

[Serial_Apologist]

A very poor analogy.

Rain is a natural phenomenon. Nobody (except God) has any control over whether it happens or it doesn't, so there's not much point in discussing in what circumstances anyone might refrain from it, nor the quality of the pleasure they might gain from producing it, or lose from not producing it. The absence of rain cannot be equated with the absence of freedom to applaud whenever one wants to, because there is no individual to whom freedom-to-rain might apply.

I was talking about things which people do which may disturb other people. And I maintain that the people who are disturbed by things that other people do to them are more disturbed than the people who are constrained by whatever pressures NOT to do those things are disturbed by not being free to do them.

Long to rain over us,
Queen save our god.

[Richard Tarleton]

I clapped between movements in Symphonie Fantastique, Beethoven 5 and a few others.

Do you mean at the JEG concert Beef? I was just listening to the pm repeat and there didn't seem to be any inter-movement applause, and wondering whether it had been edited out.

[Bryn]

A very poor analogy.

Rain is a natural phenomenon. Nobody (except God) has any control over whether it happens or it doesn't, so there's not much point in discussing in what circumstances anyone might refrain from it, nor the quality of the pleasure they might gain from producing it, or lose from not producing it. The absence of rain cannot be equated with the absence of freedom to applaud whenever one wants to, because there is no individual to whom freedom-to-rain might apply.

I was talking about things which people do which may disturb other people. And I maintain that the people who are disturbed by things that other people do to them are more disturbed than the people who are constrained by whatever pressures NOT to do those things are disturbed by not being free to do them.

No need for mythical omnipotent gods. Cloud seeding is very much a human endeavour.

[ahinton]

We must show consideration for those around us. Showing consideration is about things like not having a conversation with your companion while the orchestra's playing, playing with a smart phone, rustling sweet wrappers and programme pages, clearing your throat, sneezing during quiet passages, bringing children who are too young/not mature enough to 'stay the course', not stinking of body odour/aftershave/perfume etc. Of course the vastly overwhelming majority of concert goers do show consideration.

But I think that the 'show consideration' argument concerning clapping between movements is a bit of a red herring here at Proms. The the discussion isn't about that. It's about two competing paradigms concerning etiquette. On the one hand, some of us feel that clapping between movements, rather than waiting to the very end of some pieces (not all pieces) is fine and enhances the whole experience. On the other hand, others feel that (from what I've read) it disturbs the concentration and therefore the full appreciation and enjoyment of the piece. Both arguments are probably 'true'. But that's irrelevant. It's just two different ways of listening to music/being involved in a concert.

And remember, those of us that are fine with clapping between movements don't advocate it in all cases. I clapped between movements in Symphonie Fantastique, Beethoven 5 and a few others. For more than 20 years I've clapped at the end of the first movement of Walton 1, first movement of Sibelius' violin concerto (I did not attend this year and didn't listen, so I don't know the current situation on this). I did not during Turangalila or Sibelius 5, 6 & 7, etc. It wouldn't work between Webern's 5 Pieces Op. 10 for example.

With respect, your view seems to be based on the abstract, rather than what it's actually like at a Prom concert. I feel that you would have a greater understanding and possible sympathy with the other argument if you were there to experience it, first hand (I base this partly on my understanding that you have only ever been to 1 Prom, in the gallery - unless I've misunderstood what you said). And don't forget, regular season concerts is another discussion altogether. I quite like PG Tips' idea of getting back to formal dress!

You make a number of good points here. My own negative view on the clapping between movements business is largely predicated upon the manner in which it can risk undermining the relationship between adjacent movements and the intended rôle of the silence between them (when, as usual but not always, there is one) in that relationship. Perhaps composers moight think to consider specifying in their scores whether they believe applause to be permissible between specific movements in their work rather in the manner of Mahler's prescription of the 5 minute interval between the first and second movements of his second symphony, although the fact that no-one observes this today might not help to endear such an idea to anyone.

[Serial_Apologist]

Do you mean at the JEG concert Beef? I was just listening to the pm repeat and there didn't seem to be any inter-movement applause, and wondering whether it had been edited out.

I like it!

[Beef Oven!]

Do you mean at the JEG concert Beef? I was just listening to the pm repeat and there didn't seem to be any inter-movement applause, and wondering whether it had been edited out.

Yes, the JEG. Prom 33.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

With respect, your view seems to be based on the abstract, rather than what it's actually like at a Prom concert. I feel that you would have a greater understanding and possible sympathy with the other argument if you were there to experience it, first hand (I base this partly on my understanding that you have only ever been to 1 Prom, in the gallery - unless I've misunderstood what you said).

Indeed, there was a misunderstanding. I've been to many Proms over the years, but earlier I mentioned the only time I could recall "promenading" - in the gallery, but I now remember queuing for an arena ticket, though my recollections of that occasion are skimpy, the most memorable thing being a horn player splitting some notes and the promenaders sniggering.

[jean]

No need for mythical omnipotent gods.

He was a joke.

Cloud seeding is very much a human endeavour.

Obviously. But for your analogy to hold, the cloud-seeders would have to be pursuing their activities in order to enhance their aesthetic experience of weather, rather than for any practical end.

I don't think this is what happens.

[Bryn]

... Nobody ... has any control over whether it happens or it doesn't, ...

My response:

Cloud seeding is very much a human endeavour.

No lack of relevance there.

For some, I assume inter-movement applause to be a basically autonomic response. Not so different from natural precipitation really. I rather enjoyed it when a cloud burst beat down upon the roof of the RAH during a Prom performance of Messiaen's Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum some decades ago. There again, I come from a modern tradition which welcomes audience members wandering around during performances, and indeed entering and leaving the performance venue at will.

The uptight attitude of some here rather puts me in mind of one of Cage's reminiscences. I can't immediately find chapter and verse but the gist was that Cage and his colleagues had arranged the audience seating randomly throughout the performance venue. When the audience arrived, they (the audience members) rearranged the seating into neat rows. Such was their slavery to their tradition.

[french frank]

There again, I come from a modern tradition …

The uptight attitude of some here rather puts me in mind…

Oh, dear, Bryn. Whatever happened to respect for other people's preferences?

[jean]

Nobody in the normal course of events goes cloud-seeding for their own satisfaction.

The amount of rain produced as a result of casual cloud-seeding as a proportion of the amount of rain that falls without human intervention is tiny.

I think Bryn is aware of this, but he is so attached to his analogy he'll say anything (however foolish) in an attempt to prop it up. himself into even more ridiculous .

[jean]

I come from a modern tradition which welcomes audience members wandering around during performances, and indeed entering and leaving the performance venue at will.

Nobody's complained about that, have they?

You confuse unrelated things, because you wilfully misrepresent the reason fo people's objections expresssed here.