Applause....I know, I know..........

[Bryn]

They have the opportunity to do that at the end of the work.

Do the players really need this endorsement so much they can't wait?

A non-sequitur, surely? It's not about the players' needs, it about some members of the audience offering approbation when they feel it to be appropriate. If the musicians concerned do not wish such approbation to be shown, it would not be so difficult to indicate this prior to the performance. I have attended many concerts where a series of works by various composers, let alone a work comprising several different movements, have been performed, and where, before starting, a polite announcement had been made requesting that any applause be withheld until the end of the final piece. Simples!

[MrGongGong]

Definitely the wrong word.

Try again. Try harder.

Fail better my friend

[Beef Oven!]

A non-sequitur, surely? It's not about the players' needs, it about some members of the audience offering approbation when they feel it to be appropriate. If the musicians concerned do not wish such approbation to be shown, it would not be so difficult to indicate this prior to the performance. I have attended many concerts where a series of works by various composers, let alone a work comprising several different movements, have been performed, and where, before starting, a polite announcement had been made requesting that any applause be withheld until the end of the final piece. Simples!

Indeed, I have too attended concerts where guidance has been given concerning offering approbation. It is indeed simple.

IMV, the problem arises when there is an expectation from some people (not necessarily those in the audience) that there should be a universal ban on approbation, till the entire piece has finished and there is nothing left to play.

[jean]

No, that's my invitation to you.

[MrGongGong]

No, that's my invitation to you.

......

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."

[Bryn]

...... "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."

Sadly, not all are as well read as you, MrGG.

[jean]

A non-sequitur, surely? It's not about the players' needs, it about some members of the audience offering approbation when they feel it to be appropriate.

Unless they want to show their approbation regardless of what would please the players, it isn't a non-sequitur at all.

If the musicians concerned do not wish such approbation to be shown, it would not be so difficult to indicate this prior to the performance. I have attended many concerts where a series of works by various composers, let alone a work comprising several different movements, have been performed, and where, before starting, a polite announcement had been made requesting that any applause be withheld until the end of the final piece. Simples!

Not so simple, really. The convention that one doesn't applaud between movements of a symphony is so well establisthed that it might be considered a bit patronising to set it out.

Such a request is quite commonly made for concerts consisting of short pieces of early music though, and it's often ignored.

[jean]

Sadly, not all are as well read as you, MrGG.

It was the point of my post, of course.

I'm glad he spotted the reference, but sorry he thought the perception exclusive to himself.

[Beef Oven!]

This is where I have difficulty: Aristotle uses the word polites (which is why the quote is sometimes translated as 'Man is a political animal', but that, in our day, gives a misleading idea. But 'social' has its drawbacks too as a translation, because it gets mixed up with two ideas, that of being unsociable and that of being anti-social. Applause maybe what you think of as a 'social act' in the same sense of the word as in 'social media', people getting together, sharing etc. But I can't see that it can be a 'social act' and an 'anti-social act'.

This gets back to ferney's point earlier which I don't remember accurately but I think introduced the idea of whether an act could be considered 'anti-social' if it was done in some way 'in ignorance'. I would distinguish between 'ignorance' and 'unconcern'.

I'm not thinking of social/antisocial, as is often used today (I find that unhelpful). I am making the simple point that people's inaction can have an impact on others as action does.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One may not agree with it (as I expressed it)

Whether or not I agree with it isn't my point here - my own preference is for silence until the end of a work, but that my evening isn't ruined by others expressing their approval if they are so moved - I find re-tuning more disturbing (an A after the close of a Movement in Eb really sets my teeth on edge, but I understand that this is often necessary) and the strength of a work is sufficient in itself for me to dismiss my memory of any inter-movement sounds as soon as the next Movement begins; I find clapping more disruptive when listening to a radio broadcast (something to do with being alone in a room and speakers) but can appreciate others clapping after a particularly good performance of a Movement. (I didn't clap after the First Movement of the Rach 3rd Concerto, but could understand why ... blah-blah-blah ... (contd pg 98)

I made these points when I first contributed to this Thread's ancestor on the BBC Messageboards in 2010, and repeated them here I think a few times. I haven't done so in the past couple of years, because everybody makes exactly the same points every year, nobody has any intention of changing their opinions (because everybody is convinced that they are in the right) and there's precious little evidence of anyone actually listening to what opposing views are being expressed. It can feel like I've ended up in Monty Python's Argument Clinic.

I joined in this year solely because of the introduction of the Aristotle/Hobbes idea - which, it now seems, was intended just to demonstrate that every single individual who applauds between movements is Hobbesian, doing so for entirely selfish, self-aggrandizing anti-social purposes, ignoring the universal social conventions that they were born knowing (otherwise they'd reserve their approval until the end of the piece, like I do) in order to annoy those with a superior innate sense of decorum. There is to be no allowance that we might even consider the possibility that any one of them might do so because that is behaviour that is "part of a social act" that they have experienced at other cultural events.

It's this simplistic and uncharitable (to repeat that word) demonising of the clappers that I find both distasteful and depressing.

[MrGongGong]

The convention that one doesn't applaud between movements of a symphony is so well establisthed that it might be considered a bit patronising to set it out.

Which symphony?
Where?
Who are the audience?

and so on and so on

You make so many assumptions about the supposed universality of these things.

and "establisthed" I found out long ago that going online when pissed was a bad idea

[Bryn]

Unless they want to show their approbation regardless of what would please the players, it isn't a non-sequitur at all.


Not so simple, really. The convention that one doesn't applaud between movements of a symphony is so well establisthed[sic] that it might be considered a bit patronising to set it out.

That simply is not true. It is pretty much a convention to applaud between many movements, sometimes due to enticements put there by the composer (Haydn and Tchaikovsky spring to mind immediately). Messiaen even went so far as to suggest that selected movements of Turangalîla-Symphonie be played separate from the the whole work. In full performances of that work applause is a frequent occurrence after Joie du sang des étoiles. Also, quite a few conductors encourage applause between movements these days.

Such a request is quite commonly made for concerts consisting of short pieces of early music though, and it's often ignored.

Not necessarily ignored, maybe simply not complied with. That does sometimes happen with requests.

[pureimagination]

A quick question(s) - still relevant I hope. Has any composer written/specified the silences between the movements? (as an integral part of the music and not just in a symphony/concerto sense). There are some pieces in my opinion that warrant silence. There's that choral piece isn't there where many minutes of silence are called for between movements?

[MrGongGong]

A quick question(s) - still relevant I hope. Has any composer written/specified the silences between the movements? (as an integral part of the music and not just in a symphony/concerto sense). There are some pieces in my opinion that warrant silence. There's that choral piece isn't there where many minutes of silence are called for between movements?

Good question
I don't know, but i'm sure there will be.

This

http://delaurenti.net/favorite/

is one of my favourite soundart albums.

(though this is between pieces rather than movements)

[jean]

I don't suppose it occurred to Palestrina and his contemporaries, and of course between Mass movements there would have been other stuff going on, both musical and not.

But I doubt if they ever envisaged their work being performed in an extraliturgical context.