Applause....I know, I know..........

[MrGongGong]

I don' like certain politician, but should I express this dislike by bawling at them in the street (tempting) or by writing to them expressing concerns?

No one is suggesting that it's a good idea to shout comments during orchestral concerts.
Stop exaggerating and loosen the tie.

"writing to them expressing concerns?" how quaint

[french frank]

How simple

Now to the more important issue of uniforms for the enforcement squad.
I was thinking that large epaulettes and a bit of red piping round the hat would look good.

I'm a bit worried that if the firing squad is in audible range of the RAH it might disturb the concert.

I did say a while back that Hobbesian Man doesn't even understand the point

[jean]

No one is suggesting that it's a good idea to shout comments during orchestral concerts.

But why not?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What seems to have been lost in this latter phase of the discussion is the point both I and ff made earlier - and that was lurking in the Aristotle/Hobbes example - that a listener whose listening is disrupted by applause will be more upset by its presence than one who likes it will be upset by its absence.

Was it?! It "lurked" so well, I couldn't see it at all!

[french frank]

Was it?! It "lurked" so well, I couldn't see it at all!

One may not agree with it (as I expressed it), but wouldn't it be here:

"Maintaining silence is part of a social act, in the sense that if one individual chooses to break the silence he breaks it for all the rest. Not clapping when others wish to clap would not be antisocial since it doesn’t prevent anyone else from doing so. "

[jean]

Further emboldened:

If Aristotle is right, and that man is a ‘social animal’, a city dweller, naturally disposed towards the community and cooperative activity for the common good, he would need no other argument than that his behaviour disturbed other members of his community (or society at large).

But if Hobbes is right, and that man puts his wants as an individual before those of other individuals - believes in short that there is no such thing as society - he will never understand why he should sacrifice his instincts to those of others....

[Cross-posting, but worth the extra re-emphasis I think.]

[Beef Oven!]

"Maintaining silence is part of a social act, in the sense that if one individual chooses to break the silence he breaks it for all the rest. Not clapping when others wish to clap would not be antisocial since it doesn’t prevent anyone else from doing so. "

It may not prevent someone from doing so, in the simplest sense. But it could be perceived as a passive way of deterring people. After all, the act of applauding is a social act and I cannot think of an example of where the situation would be so even handed that it was ok for some people to clap and for others not to, simply as a response to the performance. It just doesn't happen.

[jean]

Except, perhaps, that there might be people who wish to clap not as individuals, but as a social demonstration to the Musicians that their efforts and achievements have been appreciated?

They have the opportunity to do that at the end of the work.

Do the players really need this endorsement so much they can't wait?

[jean]

It may not prevent someone from doing so, in the simplest sense. But it could be perceived as a passive way of deterring people...

Are you seriously suggesting that on hearing applause at a point where it spoils one's enjoyment of the performance, one should join in nevertheless so as not to appear to be trying to influence anyone else?

[MrGongGong]

They have the opportunity to do that at the end of the work.

How nice and organised

They should fill in a form as well stating HOW they intend to clap?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrAmwkrSuz4

[jean]

How nice and organised

Not particularly.

But if it's disorganisation you want, why draw the line anywhere? Why is

No one...suggesting that it's a good idea to shout comments during orchestral concerts.

?

We all draw the line somewhere, it seems - even you.

[french frank]

After all, the act of applauding is a social act

This is where I have difficulty: Aristotle uses the word polites (which is why the quote is sometimes translated as 'Man is a political animal', but that, in our day, gives a misleading idea. But 'social' has its drawbacks too as a translation, because it gets mixed up with two ideas, that of being unsociable and that of being anti-social. Applause maybe what you think of as a 'social act' in the same sense of the word as in 'social media', people getting together, sharing etc. But I can't see that it can be a 'social act' and an 'anti-social act'.

This gets back to ferney's point earlier which I don't remember accurately but I think introduced the idea of whether an act could be considered 'anti-social' if it was done in some way 'in ignorance'. I would distinguish between 'ignorance' and 'unconcern'.

[Beef Oven!]

Are you seriously suggesting that on hearing applause at a point where it spoils one's enjoyment of the performance, one should join in nevertheless so as not to appear to be trying to influence anyone else?

Straw man.

In any case, if people place such impossible conditions on their enjoyment, it could be argued that they are the architects of their own unhappiness.

[MrGongGong]

Not particularly.

But if it's disorganisation you want, why draw the line anywhere? Why is

?

We all draw the line somewhere, it seems - even you.

You are conflating (probably the wrong word but i'm sure one of the folks who seem to be more interested in pedantic linguistics than music will pop up!) things.

It's not a question of a "line" but a context.

I find Prom 75 to be an "antisocial act"
so wasn't planning to go along (but i'm sure it will be "Glorious" )

[jean]

You are conflating (probably the wrong word...)things...

Definitely the wrong word.

Try again. Try harder.

It's not a question of a "line" but a context.

You are drawing a line at the point where you consider noise is contextually inappropriate. And you're using some linguistic pedantry of your own to wriggle out of answering my question about why it is that

No-one is suggesting that it's a good idea to shout comments during orchestral concerts.