Applause....I know, I know..........

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some good points here, but relegating superb music to mere background music is part of today's listening problem.

No, I think this disregards historical accounts by composers of ballet Music that suggest that this is an old phenomenon.

Just as few film goers leave a cinema enthusing about how the villain's leitmotif returns in inversion and a tritone away from its first appearance when the villain is vanquished, so many ("the vast majority" some might add) balletomines' priorities have been the dancing and the choreography, with the Music respected only insofar as it gives the dancers something to dance to. (That's why there are so many ballets - dating back to before we were born - based on Music that wasn't written for them, often re-edited wtih scant regard for the original, and "played" from a recording rather than by a live band of Musicians.) Not to applaud a dancer's skill and technical mastery simply because Music is playing would be regarded as at best bizarre, and at worst, downright rude and "ignorant" - none of this is a "today" thing; it's a different cultural attitude with different traditions and expectations.

[Flosshilde]

2. icily sarcastic

[Flosshilde]

I woouldn't know when to erupt. Can you do it when someone goes round and round very fast or when they jump up and down or when they ladder their tights?

I think some people in the past erupted simply from seeing the (female) dancers' ankles.

[Flosshilde]

Some good points here, but relegating superb music to mere background music is part of today's listening problem. Put simply, applauding over the music demeans both it and the applauder, who clearly doesn't think it important.

I don't think a ballet enthusiast would regard the music as 'background' music in the sense you mean here. It's the foundation of the ballet. The dance is the choreographer's response to the music, so it is important, but people don't go to a ballet performance principally to hear the music.

(Not all of the music heard as 'background' music is 'superb' - some of it is distinctly run of the mill. And I don't think it was uncommon for composers to write music that was played as background music in the courts of their employers. Furthermore, it was not uncommon during the 18th & early 19th centuries for works to be applauded during the music - not just between movements - and for sections or movements to be encored. But that's all been said before.)

[Beef Oven!]

Some good points here, but relegating superb music to mere background music is part of today's listening problem.

I, rather less patronisingly, also think fernie has made some good points.

What exactly do you think "today's listening problem" is?

Although many of us listen in a way that you appear not to approve of, we actually go to lots of concerts, buy lots of CDs, LPs, downloads etc, listen to huge amounts of music, play in bands. That's what it's all about, IMV and it keeps the 'industry alive'. What's this problem that you speak of?

[jean]

What seems to have been lost in this latter phase of the discussion is the point both I and ff made earlier - and that was lurking in the Aristotle/Hobbes example - that a listener whose listening is disrupted by applause will be more upset by its presence than one who likes it will be upset by its absence.

As to the tradition/convention (what is the difference, exactly?) being of relatively recent origin, does that make it a bad thing? In the C18, I am told, people arrived late, ate, drank, talked and copulated during musical performances, but this is a tradition we do not feel obliged to emulate.

[jean]

You're right: I would have naturally called it just a perfect (done, finished), and a pluperfect for what you call a past perfect.

I'm using the terms linguists usually apply to English, since our perfect tenses are different from Latin's and have developed differently from those found in Frence, which are morphologically similar.

I also think my use of 'to become' was confusing...

Yes - because while the 'becoming' is complete, the continused existence of whatever it was is assumed;

if I had said 'it has been a universal tradition' it leaves it open to read it as 'and it still is' (which I didn't intend)...

Actually I think that's more 'finished' than 'it has become...'

It may also be said that clapping between movement is now 'a tradition' of the Proms (and possibly the United States). I don't know whether or not it is even common in other European countries.

They used to do it in provincial Italy when I lived there, until I told them not to.

[Frances_iom]

I don't think a ballet enthusiast would regard the music as 'background' music in the sense you mean here....

unfortunately there is small but growing minority at Covent Garden who do seem to treat it as such - not shutting up until the principal dancers arrive on stage

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Furthermore, it was not uncommon during the 18th & early 19th centuries for works to be applauded during the music - not just between movements - and for sections or movements to be encored. But that's all been said before.)

Yes, but I would have hoped we had moved on from this. The behaviour in the Globe Theatre wasn't too good, but would we want to emulate it. We should learn from the past, not copy it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

unfortunately there is small but growing minority at Covent Garden who do seem to treat it as such - not shutting up until the principal dancers arrive on stage

That happens during the opera overtures at Leeds Grand Theatre's Opera North productions..

[DracoM]

Well, having just returned from Finland and later Germany and attending some concerts, can I confirm that IME the audiences did NOT clap between movements.

[MrGongGong]

Now - this is the problem I have with these annual discussions. Why do you "presume" this, and does not the word suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, you may be being a teeny little bit presumptuous in so doing?

Only a teeny bit?

The inability to understand that different people experience the world differently and express themselves in different ways is a far bigger "listening problem" IMV

[french frank]

Actually I think that's more 'finished' than 'it has become...'

Yes, I went on mulling it over after I went to bed

They used to do it in provincial Italy when I lived there, until I told them not to.

To repeat, it isn't that there is anything 'right' or 'wrong' about either habit. But, as far as I can see, one habit has a 'musical' argument in favour of it, the other hasn't.

If one wishes to offer the HIPP argument, or customs from earlier times, one would have to consider whether the tradition should apply to earlier symphonies, but not to later ones i.e. you can applaud the movements of a Beethoven symphony but not a Vaughan Williams symphony. Or, in other words: the HIPP argument does not hold.

Jean and I are, I think, in agreement in seeing the significance here of the Aristotle/Hobbes argument. Neither philosopher can be conclusively demonstrated to have been 'right': they point up the differences between socially aware/responsive people and those who are probably neither. The deeper question was which of the two was the natural disposition of human beings. Answer: neither. Some people are considerate towards others, some are inconsiderate.

You cannot argue about personal preferences, but you can try to understand them.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Only a teeny bit?

The inability to understand that different people experience the world differently and express themselves in different ways is a far bigger "listening problem" IMV

I don' like certain politician, but should I express this dislike by bawling at them in the street (tempting) or by writing to them expressing concerns?

[MrGongGong]

Some people are considerate towards others, some are inconsiderate.

How simple

Now to the more important issue of uniforms for the enforcement squad.
I was thinking that large epaulettes and a bit of red piping round the hat would look good.

I'm a bit worried that if the firing squad is in audible range of the RAH it might disturb the concert.