Applause....I know, I know..........

[maestro267]

Prom 44 may have provided the answer to the perennial question of how to stop inappropriate applause:

Be Daniel Barenboim.

There was considerable applause after the first movt. of the Beethoven Triple Concerto, then considerably less after 1st movt. of Tchaikovsky 4, then none at all between movts. 2, 3 & 4. So clearly that must be the solution.

[teamsaint]

Prom 44 may have provided the answer to the perennial question of how to stop inappropriate applause:

Be Daniel Barenboim.

There was considerable applause after the first movt. of the Beethoven Triple Concerto, then considerably less after 1st movt. of Tchaikovsky 4, then none at all between movts. 2, 3 & 4. So clearly that must be the solution.

I Didn't listen to the concert, maestro

did it get progressively worse?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I Didn't listen to the concert, maestro

did it get progressively worse?

It got progressively better.

[P. G. Tipps]

It got progressively better.

Only in a conservative sense ...

Mind you, if applauding at funerals is now considered 'appropriate' there's a fat chance of concert halls being the last bastion of old-age etiquette propriety.

[DracoM]

It's not applause per se that I find vexing. Far from it.

In a number of big churches with fine music, organists fairly regularly get applause after voluntaries at the conclusion of services. Popes get applause. Football crowds remember heroes with sustained applause. OK - good for them. BUT a symphony has a natural unity between sections and for me the 'silences' between the movements are essential re-calibrations from one mood etc to the next, and absolutely integral parts of the entire experience.

Applause marks finishes, and the end of a movement is not strictly a 'finish' of the whole narrative / aesthetic arc at all. Triptychs work as three makes one statements. Symphonies work [usually] as four makes one.

In some ways, applause between movements to me signifies a refusal / inability / unwillingness to see the work as a complete, deliberately constructed whole, in which the rests between are part of that whole. Maybe it is symptomatic of the R3 'Breakfast' or Classic FM mode of playing individual segments / movements rather than whole pieces, and if you do it regularly enough, it can become an audience's default position / acceptance. It comes to think of music as just 5-8 minute bits, but not necessarily in any aesthetically or composer-designed order or structure. It is the 'music as wallpaper' syndrome. Maybe it means too that we are losing a sense of how to respond to the COMPOSER / ARTIST's consciously designed structures, and instead preferring the Reader's Digest approach, or 'Your Hundred Best Tunes' / 'Breakfast' approach .

Yes, I fully acknowledge that composers in times past would have expected applause between movements, in performance, , but is that how they thought of the whole composition > performance nexus? Interesting debate to be had there maybe. Maybe a bit like back in his / her time, a church composer would have expected and thus think in their head about what a piece will sound like knowing it will be sung by men and boys and not men and women. Consciously or unconsciously i.e. intuitively / instinctively composers adjust their material to the usual available combo. Nothing doctrinaire about that, not liturgical principle, HIP or anything like that, but because they were the forces available, and if you know what the combo can do, you aim off to suit them.

Sorry - going off on terrible sidetrack. Pragmatic performance tradition is what I was very clumsily trying to get at and how it informs professional practice.

[maestro267]

Another thing to think about is that the dynamic range of classical music is vastly different to that of rock music (which basically amounts to loud and louder). I can't think of any passage in rock music that's as quiet as the bass clarinet's pppppp in the first movt. of Tchaikovsky 6. If that had people applauding during it, you would completely miss it. So silence is absolutely needed to take in every single note that the composer has written, that the performers play.

[P. G. Tipps]

Another thing to think about is that the dynamic range of classical music is vastly different to that of rock music (which basically amounts to loud and louder). I can't think of any passage in rock music that's as quiet as the bass clarinet's pppppp in the first movt. of Tchaikovsky 6. If that had people applauding during it, you would completely miss it. So silence is absolutely needed to take in every single note that the composer has written, that the performers play.

Of course. I would agree wholeheartedly with that and have said so many times. Those in the audience who choose the quieter passages of any piece to clear their throats or rustle through their programmes drive me up the wall!

However, that's quite a separate matter from those who choose to applaud once the music has stopped between movements when coughing, spluttering and programme rustling is not only tolerated but considered highly 'appropriate'!.

Whilst the 'no applause between movements' argument can be made on simple (if increasingly less-fashionable) etiquette grounds the 'shhh, please don't disturb my mental concentration' case is clearly nonsense.

Now those who wish to argue for a return to bow-ties and tails for male orchestral players and long dresses for the ladies would certainly have my support as I consider such garb did lend a 'sense of occasion' to concert-going whilst casual, even sloppy, modern gear certainly doesn't.

However, I could never argue such personal dislikes prevent me from enjoying and appreciating the music and/or casual clothes-wearing by orchestral players has any noticeable effect on actual performance itself.

Such an argument would be pure nonsense, too, imo!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Whilst the 'no applause between movements' argument can be made on simple (if increasingly less-fashionable) etiquette grounds the 'shhh, please don't disturb my mental concentration' case is clearly nonsense.

So it's "clearly nonsense" to show consideration for those around you?

[maestro267]

Of course. I would agree wholeheartedly with that and have said so many times. Those in the audience who choose the quieter passages of any piece to clear their throats or rustle through their programmes drive me up the wall!

However, that's quite a separate matter from those who choose to applaud once the music has stopped between movements when coughing, spluttering and programme rustling is not only tolerated but considered highly 'appropriate'!.

Whilst the 'no applause between movements' argument can be made on simple (if increasingly less-fashionable) etiquette grounds the 'shhh, please don't disturb my mental concentration' case is clearly nonsense.

As I have said before, clearing the throat is necessary for the audience member's physical comfort. Making a noise by slapping your hands together is not.

However, I agree with your point about coughing during quieter passages. I don't think I've ever heard a Proms Shostakovich 7 where the beginning of the "invasion march" (one of the quietest passages in all music) was not interrupted by someone coughing, or in one instance, a mobile phone going off!

[Beef Oven!]

So it's "clearly nonsense" to show consideration for those around you?

We must show consideration for those around us. Showing consideration is about things like not having a conversation with your companion while the orchestra's playing, playing with a smart phone, rustling sweet wrappers and programme pages, clearing your throat, sneezing during quiet passages, bringing children who are too young/not mature enough to 'stay the course', not stinking of body odour/aftershave/perfume etc. Of course the vastly overwhelming majority of concert goers do show consideration.

But I think that the 'show consideration' argument concerning clapping between movements is a bit of a red herring here at Proms. The the discussion isn't about that. It's about two competing paradigms concerning etiquette. On the one hand, some of us feel that clapping between movements, rather than waiting to the very end of some pieces (not all pieces) is fine and enhances the whole experience. On the other hand, others feel that (from what I've read) it disturbs the concentration and therefore the full appreciation and enjoyment of the piece. Both arguments are probably 'true'. But that's irrelevant. It's just two different ways of listening to music/being involved in a concert.

And remember, those of us that are fine with clapping between movements don't advocate it in all cases. I clapped between movements in Symphonie Fantastique, Beethoven 5 and a few others. For more than 20 years I've clapped at the end of the first movement of Walton 1, first movement of Sibelius' violin concerto (I did not attend this year and didn't listen, so I don't know the current situation on this). I did not during Turangalila or Sibelius 5, 6 & 7, etc. It wouldn't work between Webern's 5 Pieces Op. 10 for example.

With respect, your view seems to be based on the abstract, rather than what it's actually like at a Prom concert. I feel that you would have a greater understanding and possible sympathy with the other argument if you were there to experience it, first hand (I base this partly on my understanding that you have only ever been to 1 Prom, in the gallery - unless I've misunderstood what you said). And don't forget, regular season concerts is another discussion altogether. I quite like PG Tips' idea of getting back to formal dress!

[Bryn]

So it's "clearly nonsense" to show consideration for those around you?

Not when it's a case of showing consideration for those who feel it appropriate to applaud.

[jean]

Not when it's a case of showing consideration for those who feel it appropriate to applaud.

It has been pointed out many times on this thread, but has usually been ignored, that the disturbance suffered by having to cope with something you do not want is necessarily greater than the disturbance suffered by the absence of something whose presence (other things being equal) you would welcome.

(There must be a name for this!)

[Pulcinella]

As I have said before, clearing the throat is necessary for the audience member's physical comfort. Making a noise by slapping your hands together is not.

However, I agree with your point about coughing during quieter passages. I don't think I've ever heard a Proms Shostakovich 7 where the beginning of the "invasion march" (one of the quietest passages in all music) is interrupted by someone coughing, or in one instance, a mobile phone going off!

Surely a not missing here, maestro?
(Before the interrupted, that is!)

[Serial_Apologist]

Now those who wish to argue for a return to bow-ties and tails for male orchestral players and long dresses for the ladies would certainly have my support as I consider such garb did lend a 'sense of occasion' to concert-going whilst casual, even sloppy, modern gear certainly doesn't.

However, I could never argue such personal dislikes prevent me from enjoying and appreciating the music and/or casual clothes-wearing by orchestral players has any noticeable effect on actual performance itself.

Such an argument would be pure nonsense, too, imo!

Apart from which, it would be a non-plausible starting point for a defense of inter-movement clapping, given that, among other considerations, one does not normally listen to bow ties, tails or long dresses

[Bryn]

It has been pointed out many times on this thread, but has usually been ignored, that the disturbance suffered by having to cope with something you do not want is necessarily greater than the disturbance suffered by the absence of something whose presence (other things being equal) you would welcome.

(There must be a name for this!)

The point may have been put forward, but pointed out? No.I consider it specious.Rain, for instance can be very annoying at times, but it's absence in drought would be far more so.