Applause....I know, I know..........

[Beef Oven!]

I'm sure that they were at the time but wonder whether he might have changed his mind in later years had he enjoyed a reasonable lifespan - particularly, perhaps, following his listening to the première of his young friend's Gurrelieder performed at a single stretch; after all, if he could change his mind about the order of middle movements. in the sixth...

True, but that doesn't change what I've believed!

Also, dying before reaching his 51st birthday is sooner than might have been expected, even back in his day. Whether such a span is reasonable or utterly unreasonable, I wouldn't know.

[ahinton]

Also, dying before reaching his 51st birthday is sooner than might have been expected, even back in his day. Whether such a span is reasonable or utterly unreasonable, I wouldn't know.

Oh, I would; it's utterly unreasonable, just as was his sudden decision to alter the order of the middle movements of the sixth(!)...

[Beef Oven!]

Oh, I would; it's utterly unreasonable, just as was his sudden decision to alter the order of the middle movements of the sixth(!)...

Utterly unreasonably, then!

And just imagine having a discussion on the forum along the lines of which was his best symphony, the 14th or the 17th?!!!!!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And just imagine having a discussion on the forum along the lines of which was his best symphony, the 14th or the 17th?!!!!!

To say nothing of wondering which 5 or 6 of his String Quartets we should take on our holidays!


There's a parallel universe where this is happening then as we speak!

[Beef Oven!]

To say nothing of wondering which 5 or 6 of his String Quartets we should take on our holidays!


There's a parallel universe where this is happening then as we speak!

[ahinton]

Utterly unreasonably, then!

And just imagine having a discussion on the forum along the lines of which was his best symphony, the 14th or the 17th?!!!!!

Oh, don't; please, PLEASE don't!...

[ahinton]

To say nothing of wondering which 5 or 6 of his String Quartets we should take on our holidays!


There's a parallel universe where this is happening then as we speak!

Quite. OK, he'd have had to live to an almost Cartesian age in order to have been able to start to absorb the quartets of his in some ways successor Shostakovich, but the prospect of such a parallel universe would surely have at the very least been a most intriguing one ?!...

[Flosshilde]

the introduction of the Aristotle/Hobbes idea - which, it now seems, was intended just to demonstrate that every single individual who applauds between movements is Hobbesian, doing so for entirely selfish, self-aggrandizing anti-social purposes, ignoring the universal social conventions that they were born knowing (otherwise they'd reserve their approval until the end of the piece, like I do) in order to annoy those with a superior innate sense of decorum.

[french frank]

I joined in this year solely because of the introduction of the Aristotle/Hobbes idea - which, it now seems, was intended just to demonstrate that every single individual who applauds between movements is Hobbesian […]

!!!???

It was intended to divert people into discussing interesting ideas rather than get carried away by emotions over something which seems no more than an irritation. Not the forum at its best.

[ahinton]

!!!???

It was intended to divert people into discussing interesting ideas rather than get carried away by emotions over something which seems no more than an irritation. Not the forum at its best.

But then might that not be because the subject itself is not especially easily amenable to "the forum at its best"? I think that what matters the most with this kind of thing is what the composer intended or hoped for in terms of performer input and conentration and consequent audience ditto and, in extended works of a "symphonic" nature that are sufficiently integrated, any interruption such as applause or, as fhg so pointedly pointed out, necessary orchestral tuning between movements especially of a tonal work with a centre far removed from the A to which the orchestra tunes - in other words, in cass where the division of a work into separate movements is to some degree incidental to itself as a whole integrated expression.

[french frank]

I think that what matters the most with this kind of thing is what the composer intended or hoped for in terms of performer input and conentration and consequent audience ditto

Yes, certainly with works of a "symphonic" nature, as you describe it. But I'm not sure what you intend by the point about 'performer input'; in some cases the performer's wishes seem more important than the composer's - I think particularly of a Late Night Prom where Tom Service had to announce, within days of writing a Guardian article assuring people that they should applaud when they felt it was deserved, that Maria João Pires had specially asked that there should not be applause after every individual piece (but there was still applause specifically where she'd asked that there shouldn't be).

Chamber music in general seems to attract less of a problem. Does it often occur during string quartets &c, I wonder?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

!!!???

It was intended to divert people into discussing interesting ideas rather than get carried away by emotions over something which seems no more than an irritation. Not the forum at its best.

Yes - and I joined in with that understanding. As I (mis)understood jean's #232, quoting your statement that if Hobbes is right, and that man puts his wants as an individual before those of other individuals - believes in short that there is no such thing as society - he will never understand why he should sacrifice his instincts to those of others.... to refer to all inter-movement clappers ("every single individual who applauds between movements"), I got carried away by emotions. Not me at my best. Apologies.

[french frank]

Yes - and I joined in with that understanding. As I (mis)understood jean's #232, quoting your statement that if Hobbes is right, and that man puts his wants as an individual before those of other individuals - believes in short that there is no such thing as society - he will never understand why he should sacrifice his instincts to those of others.... to refer to all inter-movement clappers ("every single individual who applauds between movements"), I got carried away by emotions. Not me at my best. Apologies.

No need for an apology - if there was mischief on my part (and there was, slightly ) it was in bringing in the idea that there's 'no such thing as society'. That was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

[jean]

Chamber music in general seems to attract less of a problem. Does it often occur during string quartets &c, I wonder?

Early choral music is beginning to succumb.

It's only in the last few years that I have been hearing applause between the movements of a Mass setting. They don't usually
clap after the Kyrie, but then they hear the Amen at the end of the Gloria and after that, there's no stopping them.

[Serial_Apologist]

Early choral music is beginning to succumb.

It's only in the last few years that I have been hearing applause between the movements of a Mass setting. They don't usually
clap after the Kyrie, but then they hear the Amen at the end of the Gloria and after that, there's no stopping them.

Are you referring to performances of sacred music in churches and cathedrals, jean?

The reason I ask refers to my raising of the matter of applause I have noted in Roman Catholic services in churches, cathedrals or from the balcony of the Vatican when crowds are addressed in word and music by the Pope, as opposed to those of the CofE in particular, where the frowning on applause appears to denote a tradition with closer associations or past connections with Eastern mystical traditions holding what have become very different preconceptions about the role of silence in spiritual practice from their origins. For "traditional" Protestant (as opposed, obviously, to modern-day Pentecostal) thinking, applause would seem to denote equating circumstances of worship with entertainment, and it occurs to me that it may not only be modern-day refugees from todays religious practices with their encouragements of spontaneity, but skeptics in search of some substitute which nevertheless retains, transliterates, or infers aspects of "the sacred" as manifest into silent uninterrupted attention in the concert situation who are therefore upset when they feel this delicately achieved sense of the sublime to have been destroyed.