Applause....I know, I know..........

[kernelbogey]

Spot on kipperkid

The assumption that people clap (that's CLAP) in between movements because they are either
1: Exhibitionists
or
2: Ignorant plebs who need to be taught the rules

is nonsense.

Since you begin by quoting and praising oven's response to me, I assume that your 1 & 2 are meant to suggest that they summarise my views; but I said nothing of the sort. In fact I was rather kindly suggesting that the people concerned are driven by natural emotion.

[MrGongGong]

Since you begin by quoting and praising oven's response to me, I assume that your 1 & 2 are meant to suggest that they summarise my views; but I said nothing of the sort. In fact I was rather kindly suggesting that the people concerned are driven by natural emotion.

I wasn't suggesting your views were this at all.
but I do think you are right in your second sentence

[Flosshilde]

I'm sorry, Flossie, but you'll have to trawl through the proms threads to find those little digs about clapping between movements dropped by MrGG long before this one began. I ignored them as they were off-topic.

Why? It's you that made the claim - you should provide the evidence, otherwise I might conclude that you were making an unsubstiated - & unsubstantiatable (?) - claim.

[Flosshilde]

Where there has been a universal tradition which has become the 'social norm' (i.e. is universally respected),

What do 'universal' and 'tradition' mean?

&, given that some people clearly feel that it is appropriate to applaud between movements, it is equally cleary that the recent convention (not a 'tradition') of not doing so is not universally respected.

[jean]

...the recent convention (not a 'tradition')...

Can you explain the difference, in this context?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What do 'universal' and 'tradition' mean?
&, given that some people clearly feel that it is appropriate to applaud between movements, it is equally cleary that the recent convention (not a 'tradition') of not doing so is not universally respected.

There will always be those who either rebel or simply don't care. But the people with the loudest mouths are not necessarily the ones with the best solutions.

[Petrushka]

I remember a performance of Mahler 9 conducted by Abbado some years ago which no one applauded until long after it was over - because they just couldn't; surely those composers and performers who desire adulation after a performance of one of their works could not have hoped for better "applause" than this "sound of no hands able to clap"?...

I was present at that 1991 Prom performance and it was extraordinary. There was a performance of Bruckner 9 given by Günter Wand in 1979 in Ottobeuren Cathedral at which no-one applauded at all. The audience just sat in silence for 10 minutes not wanting to break the spell until the musicians quietly left the stage.

[Flosshilde]

Hobbesian Man.

In fact there is a temptation to posit: 'Hobbesian Man, Aristotelian Woman' - to see who protests :-)

You should always resist temptation

[french frank]

What do 'universal' and 'tradition' mean?

I was using the words in their standard usage. Most of us d'un certain age can remember when no one applauded between movements; that is, the practice was 'universal' because everyone respected it. It was a 'tradition' because the practice was handed down through succeeding generations (Latin trado-tradere to hand over), perhaps developing since the time of Mahler and Wagner(?). I used the perfect tense in recognition of the fact that the practice has not continued down to our own time.

&, given that some people clearly feel that it is appropriate to applaud between movements, it is equally cleary that the recent convention (not a 'tradition') of not doing so is not universally respected.

That is why I used a past tense in contradistinction to your present tense. I was not claiming that this is a practice universally respected but that there was a time within living memory when it was.

[Warlock]

I would prefer to hear applause between the movements than the pontificating of Mark Elder!

[Flosshilde]

I was using the words in their standard usage. Most of us d'un certain age can remember when no one applauded between movements; that is, the practice was 'universal' because everyone respected it. It was a 'tradition' because the practice was handed down through succeeding generations (Latin trado-tradere to hand over), perhaps developing since the time of Mahler and Wagner(?). I used the perfect tense in recognition of the fact that the practice has not continued down to our own time.

That is why I used a past tense in contradistinction to your present tense. I was not claiming that this is a practice universally respected but that there was a time within living memory when it was.

Is "which has become" past tense? I would have thought that it is present tense, & past tense would have been 'became' or 'was', indicating that it was no longer. But perhaps I shouldn't question She Who Knows All.

[french frank]

Is "which has become" past tense? I would have thought that it is present tense, & past tense would have been 'became' or 'was', indicating that it was no longer. But perhaps I shouldn't question She Who Knows All.

Has become is a past perfect. Present tenses would be is becoming or becomes. The use of the perfect could be scrutinised (even criticised) but it depends how you interpret it. It has something in common, I would say, with novelists us e of the present tense which is to be understood as referring to something that happened in the past.

I would have considered it a nonsense to claim that maintaining silence between the movements IS a universally respected tradition when clearly the whole point of the discussion is that it is not. It has been until recent times - when it ceased to be.

[jean]

'Has become' is a present perfect, an action begun in the past but completed in the present. The past perfect is had become.

.

[EdgeleyRob]

People usually clap because they like something

Orchestral musicians shuffle their feet is that ok?

Maybe the solution is to make sure there's nothing worth clapping?

There was a very average (only IMO) rendition of RVW's violin concerto at the Proms the other evening.
Apparently warranted applause between movements.

[MrGongGong]

There was a very average (only IMO) rendition of RVW's violin concerto at the Proms the other evening.
Apparently warranted applause between movements.

I heard that on the radio
a bit dull IMV

BUT obviously some folks loved it.

Which is fine......