New Proms Director

[Ferretfancy]

News that got back to me from journalists was that Roger was very much a 'party animal', hosting expensive events for the press; and rather revelled in meeting the celebrities (Barenboim, perhaps, but Pet Shop Boys/Rufus Wainwright at least as much). Pickard looks a bit less … flamboyant than Roger.

We have Jarvis Cocker coming up this year, but it looks - am I wrong? - as if there has been a bit of rowing back from the naked 'pop' appeal of last year …

What exactly was 'the naked pop appeal' of last year? I've just had a look through the 2014 prospectus. There were only eight events which could be said to be pop orientated, of which the longest was the John Wilson presentation of Kiss Me Kate, which was also the one full evening. There were six late Proms, and a Cbeebies morning concert lasting 50 minutes. All in all, there was a rough total of ten hours 'Naked pop appeal', although personally I would not have wanted to include the late night Battle of the Bands, or the Cole Porter in that category.

Did this do serious damage to the Proms reputation? I don't think so, and let's remember that in addition to the 76 RAH events there were the excellent chamber concerts at Cadogan Hall. A little sense of proportion might be a good idea.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A little sense of proportion might be a good idea.

It's the creeping "proportion" that has been the issue.

[doversoul1]

What exactly was 'the naked pop appeal' of last year? I've just had a look through the 2014 prospectus. There were only eight events which could be said to be pop orientated, of which the longest was the John Wilson presentation of Kiss Me Kate, which was also the one full evening. There were six late Proms, and a Cbeebies morning concert lasting 50 minutes. All in all, there was a rough total of ten hours 'Naked pop appeal', although personally I would not have wanted to include the late night Battle of the Bands, or the Cole Porter in that category.

Did this do serious damage to the Proms reputation? I don't think so, and let's remember that in addition to the 76 RAH events there were the excellent chamber concerts at Cadogan Hall. A little sense of proportion might be a good idea.

I think it was the way in which these ‘Naked Pop appeal’ were promoted that was the issue. I had an impression that these were not included on the basis of their musical merit but they were more like bait to catch non-classical music listeners, maybe so that the director could say that the Proms had a wider audience? It didn’t matter if the new audience didn’t hear a note of classical music.

[french frank]

What exactly was 'the naked pop appeal' of last year? I've just had a look through the 2014 prospectus. There were only eight events which could be said to be pop orientated, of which the longest was the John Wilson presentation of Kiss Me Kate, which was also the one full evening. There were six late Proms, and a Cbeebies morning concert lasting 50 minutes. All in all, there was a rough total of ten hours 'Naked pop appeal', although personally I would not have wanted to include the late night Battle of the Bands, or the Cole Porter in that category.

I didn't mean 'popular' in that sense, I meant performers, like Rufus Wainwright, The Pet Shop Boys, Paloma Faith and possibly Laura Mvula - the big-name popular performers with appeal, rather than the popular music.

Did this do serious damage to the Proms reputation? I don't think so, and let's remember that in addition to the 76 RAH events there were the excellent chamber concerts at Cadogan Hall. A little sense of proportion might be a good idea.

What?! Who said anything about damaging the reputation? I merely enquired whether I was wrong in thinking there were fewer 'pop'-type concerts this year.

[Ferretfancy]

I didn't mean 'popular' in that sense, I meant performers, like Rufus Wainwright, The Pet Shop Boys, Paloma Faith and possibly Laura Mvula - the big-name popular performers with appeal, rather than the popular music.

What?! Who said anything about damaging the reputation? I merely enquired whether I was wrong in thinking there were fewer 'pop'-type concerts this year.

I've had a look at this year's list, and I've found eight concerts which might be interpreted as popular rather than pop, including Fiddler on the Roof,. which I certainly intend to miss, even with Bryn Terfel. Yes, perhaps it is the over promotion in past years which has been worrying, and I agree that trying to persuade people that classical music is good for them rarely works as planned. Nevertheless, the BBC has to fill the Albert Hall, and classical music does need a younger audience if it is to prosper.

Take a look at the average audience for the Philharmonia, which has performances and soloists hard to equal anywhere. This is probably the most elderly audience in the country.
Of course, all sorts of factors come into play, not overlooking cost. I still think that as yet there's no real cause for complaint about the Proms, and I look forward once again to being there.

[french frank]

Just musing: Is this the first BBC - or first ever - appointment from completely outside the BBC?

I still think that as yet there's no real cause for complaint

Ferret, I still think you're reading 'complaint' into what wasn't a complaint. The point about the strategy of introducing 'pop performers' is that it doesn't introduce new audiences to classical music. Any concert can get a younger audience by making it a pop concert: the aim of the Proms (BBC, R3) is to get younger audiences to listen to classical music, surely?

[Ferretfancy]

Just musing: Is this the first BBC - or first ever - appointment from completely outside the BBC?


Ferret, I still think you're reading 'complaint' into what wasn't a complaint. The point about the strategy of introducing 'pop performers' is that it doesn't introduce new audiences to classical music. Any concert can get a younger audience by making it a pop concert: the aim of the Proms (BBC, R3) is to get younger audiences to listen to classical music, surely?

There surely is a note of complaint on these boards, namely that the BBC is dumbing down the Proms to attract a larger audience, my feeling is that the small additions to the schedules so far can hardly be said to be that. In the end the quality of performance is what counts, and surely nobody would dismiss the sheer professionalism of John Wilson, to take only one example.

Perhaps there needs to be more research into what attracts people to classical music. Every year in the Arena I meet people who have never been to the Proms before, and have come perhaps out of curiosity, and they usually enjoy the experience. How does the BBC persuade them to come regularly, not just to the Proms but to other concerts as well ?

[Sir Velo]

Nevertheless, the BBC has to fill the Albert Hall, and classical music does need a younger audience if it is to prosper.

Take a look at the average audience for the Philharmonia, which has performances and soloists hard to equal anywhere. This is probably the most elderly audience in the country.
Of course, all sorts of factors come into play, not overlooking cost. I still think that as yet there's no real cause for complaint about the Proms, and I look forward once again to being there.

Our local church is available for hire to private parties and other organisations in order to raise much needed revenue for roof repairs etc. I don't know whether the vicar or churchwardens had any hope that this would be a good way of increasing the number of churchgoers but attendances continue to dwindle and there is little or no sign that those who attend the Friday night raves are back kneeling on the prayer mats on Sunday, begging forgiveness for their sins.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about ageing audiences. One only has to look at archive footage of concertgoers in the 30s; 50s or 70s to realise that it was ever thus. Once the current crop of greybeards shuffle off , there will be a new throng of wrinklies to replace them. In fact, given the ageing population, I would back that there will be an increase in concertgoing over the next few years!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about ageing audiences. One only has to look at archive footage of concertgoers in the 30s; 50s or 70s to realise that it was ever thus. Once the current crop of greybeards shuffle off , there will be a new throng of wrinklies to replace them.

In fact, given the ageing population, I would back that there will be an increase in concertgoing over the next few years!

This hadn't occurred to me before! (More reason for people to book their tickets early!)

[Lento]

I think I read that the appointee has no broadcasting experience, but that could be a good thing, possibly... or totally irrelevant, of course.

[Ferretfancy]

Our local church is available for hire to private parties and other organisations in order to raise much needed revenue for roof repairs etc. I don't know whether the vicar or churchwardens had any hope that this would be a good way of increasing the number of churchgoers but attendances continue to dwindle and there is little or no sign that those who attend the Friday night raves are back kneeling on the prayer mats on Sunday, begging forgiveness for their sins.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about ageing audiences. One only has to look at archive footage of concertgoers in the 30s; 50s or 70s to realise that it was ever thus. Once the current crop of greybeards shuffle off , there will be a new throng of wrinklies to replace them. In fact, given the ageing population, I would back that there will be an increase in concertgoing over the next few years!

Me? A greybeard? well, not quite, but perhaps I should practise my shuffle!

[Ferretfancy]

I think I read that the appointee has no broadcasting experience, but that could be a good thing, possibly... or totally irrelevant, of course.

He will have had plenty of chances at Glyndebourne to see broadcasters at work, at least on the technical side, and he will presumably have experienced advisers.

[french frank]

There surely is a note of complaint on these boards, namely that the BBC is dumbing down the Proms to attract a larger audience, my feeling is that the small additions to the schedules so far can hardly be said to be that.

"[David Pickard's] conservatism may indicate that the BBC top brass would like to see a change of tack [sic!] at the Proms, which has become increasingly gimmicky in recent seasons. " R. Christiansen

I would tend to agree that these were 'gimmicks' - aimed at creating a splash of publicity for the Proms, which they duly did. In fact they stole the headlines and allowed the press office to announce that the Proms had had a record number of 'first-time Proms-goers'.

My original point, to elaborate it a bit, was to wonder whether, with the departure almost a year ago of the chief architect of the 'pop performer Proms', there were fewer such concerts this year than last. Objectively. Without any implication of what my opinion was.

[Flosshilde]

Our local church is available for hire to private parties and other organisations in order to raise much needed revenue for roof repairs etc. I don't know whether the vicar or churchwardens had any hope that this would be a good way of increasing the number of churchgoers

I wouldn't have thought so - simply a way of using an under-used building to raise some money. It's the ones who bring in guitars etc to services who hope to attract younger people.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about ageing audiences. One only has to look at archive footage of concertgoers in the 30s; 50s or 70s to realise that it was ever thus. Once the current crop of greybeards shuffle off , there will be a new throng of wrinklies to replace them. In fact, given the ageing population, I would back that there will be an increase in concertgoing over the next few years!

This is possibly a little compacent - it suggests that people 'naturally' devlop a taste for a completely different type of music as they get older. I think that people in their 30s & 40s now are more likely to move from 'teenage popular music' to 'adult popular music', & I know quite a few people in their 60s now who listen to the music they listened to in their 20s & 30s, & it's not classical music.

[P. G. Tipps]

... I know quite a few people in their 60s now who listen to the music they listened to in their 20s & 30s, & it's not classical music.

I know an arthritically-challenged relative of mine, aged 77 years, who, after consuming copious amounts of vodka, still manages to bop around his bedroom to the sound of old Elvis vinyl disks, and then breathlessly informs anyone else unfortunate enough to be remaining on the premises that Elvis is 'really cool' and his music 'the best ever written'.

Fortunately for the rest of humanity such eccentric elderly enthusiasms are mercifully rare ...