Prom Planner - booking today....

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18047

    #91
    Originally posted by mrbouffant View Post
    It is certainly true that the ability to get in the queue seems extremely random -- this year I ran two computers side by side and one got in at position 450 at about 9.02 and the other never got anywhere near it in the 15-20 mins I was waiting to reach the head of the queue. I am on fibre etc. so it is not a function of bandwidth or linespeed.

    In my view this system is an improvement on the old days where you sent off your form (cut neatly from the prospectus) and a cheque to a postal address and sat and waited and hoped for a number of weeks until some/all/none your tickets came back. IIRC, allocations were not done on a first-come first-served basis, but were somehow 'random'. Surely the current system is 'better' than that?!
    It may not be feasible for the system to completely match a reasonable specification, but it might be a lot better than it actuallly is.

    Desirable attributes would be:

    1. Fairness
    2. Ease of use
    3. Optimum ticket sales for the vendor(s)
    4. Effectiveness of the processing

    Re Fairness, doing an allocation based on first come first served process is not necessarly fair, and if getting into the system is so haphazard as it seems to have been, then this suggests that Fairness is not a high priority by the developers.

    Ease of use factors might be seen to have been poor. Some people are more forgiving, but trying to find ways to make the system work using multiple computers, ipads etc. hardly suggests that everybody found it an easy process.

    We don't know about the optimisation of ticket sales for the vendors. If each ticket is viewed independently from the others, then all solutions are pretty much the same, but if we get more complex requests then the final allocations may not be optimal for the vendors. The input data doesn't really allow this, but real time behaviour during the 30 mins for each on line purchase might. For example:

    I want 10 seats for concert X at price A.
    I want 4 seats for concert Y at price B
    I want 15 seats for concert Z at price C

    If all the seats are allocated then the revenue for the vendor is 10A+4B+15C.

    However, the user may not buy any seats if there are not 10 contiguous seats for concert X. This would represent a potential loss of seat sales by the vendor(s) to the value of 10A.

    If allocations are firm, then other users may already have been allocated seats, thus preventing me from obtaining the 10 contiguous seats.

    If we imagine running the allocation process many times, then sometimes there will be contiguous seats at the time at which my request is processsed, and the vendor will achieve more sales based on my allocation, while on other runs my request for those seats will be blocked, and both I and the vendor lose out.

    On balance a pragmatic approach is that it will all come out in the wash anyway, the vendor has many prospective purchasers for seats, and may be happy with a sub optimal allocation, as the sales will be high enough.

    In order to achiave an optimal solution using this kind of analysis, a lot of information about requests and preferences needs to be available in advance. Ideally all the preferences need to be known even before even one ticket is allocated. However, the real world isn't like that.

    A slightly similar problem, if we are trying to consider optimal allocations is the Stable Marriage Problem - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem I am not claiming that this is the same problem, it merely has some similarities. Solutions to that problem are known, but if there are N matches to be made the solutions are O(N^2). Suppose N is 100,000 (I'll come back to that later). In that case the processing time is proportional to 10,000,000,000 times some basic time unit - whatever that is. Modern computer systems are fast, but they can still be nobbled by problems which explode as they scale up. Suppose we consider a basic time unit of 1/100 of a second. With the (speculative) values here, it would take 100,000,000 seconds to get the job done - which is over 3 years!

    With algorithms like that, what value of N would give an acceptable processing time? Turns out a value of N=1000 gets the job done in under 3 hours - about 2.778 hours.

    N=10000 gives over 11 days - about 11.6 days.

    So, if we are looking for solutions which satisfy some fairly hard optimality requireents, the processing time can become very large if there are a lot of matches to do, and the problem cannot be solved in reasonable time. How can this be resolved? Several ways - reduce the number of matches, reduce the conditions on optimality - so that sub optimal solutions can be considered acceptable, and several other ways.

    What about the magic value of N? Well, the RAH has approximately 5000 seats, and there are slightly fewer than 80 concerts in the Proms series - and not all of them are in the RAH. From the vendor's point of view each possible seat should be sold - and that is about 400,000 tickets.

    Now let's tackle this from another direction. Suppose there is demand for all the tickets on the opening booking day. We in fact know that this is not the case, as only a few concerts are actually sold old. If we have algorithm which is O(N) - i.e linear, rather than quadratic, how long would the processing take now?

    Again, assume a basic time unit of 1/100 sec, then if we choose N=400,000, then the operational time would be 4000 seconds, which is 1.111 ... hours - under an hour and a quarter.

    Where does all this fit in with reality? The indications are that trying to do a complex matching process to give optimal results for both the vendors and buyers may not be feasible within the time available. A much simpler matching process could be done in a reasonable time.

    The existing "solution" does seem to fail with respect to fairness - as the access to the waiting room seems to be very haphazard. Personally I don't see any reason why some form of batch processing wouldn't be acceptable, and could be achieved within a reasonable time - say 1 day. Putting in reasonable requests in a suitably encoded form and then having all the requests by all customers available processed with allocations notified a day later would not be unreasonable IMO, and could be fairer and a lot less frustrating for customers, so in fact I disagree that the current method is preferable to earlier off line methods.

    The current system does not have any way of a user expressing significant preferences - such as "If I can't get all of my seats for concert A, then I would like to go to concert B, D etc." Other booking systems do allow or require users to state a ranking of preferencess, which could lead to fairer outcomes, otherwise some users may get all of their frist preferences, while others may get nothing - not even their lowest preference tickets.

    We also now know that if only a few concerts are fully sold out, that those were the ones which were in some ways problematic. They could have been anticipated in advance - either based on previous experiencs, or (and also) based on an analysis of data from the Proms Planner or similar earlier data gathering.

    Trying to mix online - real time input with offline processing may be a mistake too. Some users were perhaps trying to make their selections on a web based system in real time, while other users had their allocations dealt with using input from the Proms Planner. That could have been made almost completely an off line process - why did users have to log on to do that?

    Comment

    • Anastasius
      Full Member
      • Mar 2015
      • 1860

      #92
      I really think that we are now going over the top on this. What is it that is really that bad about the current system? Dave2002, you haven't said what frequency you were polling the website. That is an important question.

      Multiple computers are not necessary. One is fine.

      iPads? If the website says they are not recommended then no-one should moan when their iPad freezes.

      Fairness? What would you suggest other than 'first come first served'? It should not be based on total number of tickets being bought. Base it on the Proms Planner? So in what sequence are they going to process those? Alphabetically? Random?

      The only thing that the RAH needs to do is beef up the initial logging in sequence. That is the only place that is giving people grief as far as I can see. (OK...glitch for some in processing card payments but that should be easily resolvable.) So make the queue deeper. That is all that they need to do. Temporarily scale up website access. As I type this, the thought occurs to me that what the RAH experiences at 9am on May 16th is akin to a DDoS attack (distributed denial of service). There may be external ISP issues at work here and outside the control of the RAH that explain why some users have more problems logging in than others.
      Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

      Comment

      • Anastasius
        Full Member
        • Mar 2015
        • 1860

        #93
        I just found this newspaper article from 2010. Seems like the RAH is complacent.



        Wonder if Jasper Hope is still there ? Perhaps if we rang him up to complain?

        EDIT: Ah no, he's not. He's slithered off to become the CEO at Dubai Opera. Lucy Noble is the new Director of Events at the RAH.

        EDIT EDIT: Knew there was something about the cut of the man's gyb I didn't like "

        "Film scores from the Godfather, Titanic and Gladiator should be recognised as "serious" classical music along side Mozart and Tchaikovsky, according to a director of Royal Albert Hall.
        Jasper Hope, chief operating officer at the Royal Albert Hall, said film scores were some of the “best classical music written”, arguing they should be celebrated with the best-loved operas and ballets." Hmmph!!
        Last edited by Anastasius; 17-05-15, 08:22.
        Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

        Comment

        • teamsaint
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 25231

          #94
          Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
          I really think that we are now going over the top on this. What is it that is really that bad about the current system? Dave2002, you haven't said what frequency you were polling the website. That is an important question.

          Multiple computers are not necessary. One is fine.

          iPads? If the website says they are not recommended then no-one should moan when their iPad freezes.

          Fairness? What would you suggest other than 'first come first served'? It should not be based on total number of tickets being bought. Base it on the Proms Planner? So in what sequence are they going to process those? Alphabetically? Random?

          The only thing that the RAH needs to do is beef up the initial logging in sequence. That is the only place that is giving people grief as far as I can see. (OK...glitch for some in processing card payments but that should be easily resolvable.) So make the queue deeper. That is all that they need to do. Temporarily scale up website access. As I type this, the thought occurs to me that what the RAH experiences at 9am on May 16th is akin to a DDoS attack (distributed denial of service). There may be external ISP issues at work here and outside the control of the RAH that explain why some users have more problems logging in than others.
          Does it say that? I certainly missed it.
          just looked again, and I can't see a warning
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment

          • teamsaint
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 25231

            #95
            Originally posted by Zucchini
            Yes:
            "Once you are in the waiting room queue, your computer requires a continuous connection with our website to maintain your position. We therefore suggest that you use a desktop computer rather than a tablet or mobile device."

            ah yes, so it does.
            actually, I wasn't in a queue, went straight to ticket purchase from the listings,and wasn't far from completing which was when my ipad froze, ( which it is not in the habit of doing)so the warning could be rather better, more specific, and/or more obvious when buying on that route.


            Think I'll prom as usual.
            Last edited by teamsaint; 17-05-15, 09:48.
            I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

            I am not a number, I am a free man.

            Comment

            • Petrushka
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 12332

              #96
              Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
              I really think that we are now going over the top on this. What is it that is really that bad about the current system? Dave2002, you haven't said what frequency you were polling the website. That is an important question.

              Multiple computers are not necessary. One is fine.

              iPads? If the website says they are not recommended then no-one should moan when their iPad freezes.

              Fairness? What would you suggest other than 'first come first served'? It should not be based on total number of tickets being bought. Base it on the Proms Planner? So in what sequence are they going to process those? Alphabetically? Random?

              The only thing that the RAH needs to do is beef up the initial logging in sequence. That is the only place that is giving people grief as far as I can see. (OK...glitch for some in processing card payments but that should be easily resolvable.) So make the queue deeper. That is all that they need to do.
              I'm in complete agreement with all of this.
              "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

              Comment

              • Ferretfancy
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 3487

                #97
                A, as I was only buying a season pass, I escaped a lot of the problems. It seems to me that some purchasers have made the mistake of leaving the relevant page when they were in the queue, which automatically sent them back to the top. It isn't stressed very well that once in the queue you must stay there.
                I used Visa as my credit card, and was expected to go to Verify by Visa. Luckily I had the password ready as I had trouble with this last year.

                Apologies if this all seems rather obvious. I'm always a bit keyed up when applying, which is a good way of getting flustered at the wrong moment.

                Comment

                • Rolmill
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 636

                  #98
                  Originally posted by mrbouffant View Post
                  In my view this system is an improvement on the old days where you sent off your form (cut neatly from the prospectus) and a cheque to a postal address and sat and waited and hoped for a number of weeks until some/all/none your tickets came back. IIRC, allocations were not done on a first-come first-served basis, but were somehow 'random'. Surely the current system is 'better' than that?!
                  Well, I think there is one aspect of the online system which has not been commented on, but which is (for some people) a clear backward step and less "fair" than the old postal system. The current system requires you to be free at 9am on a particular date (or at least within an hour or two) to sit at a computer for an unpredictable length of time; if this is not possible for any reason, then you know that you are likely to miss out on some of your choices. At least the old system (though flawed and unpredictable itself) didn't make this potentially unreasonable demand.

                  Comment

                  • Petrushka
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 12332

                    #99
                    Originally posted by Rolmill View Post
                    Well, I think there is one aspect of the online system which has not been commented on, but which is (for some people) a clear backward step and less "fair" than the old postal system. The current system requires you to be free at 9am on a particular date (or at least within an hour or two) to sit at a computer for an unpredictable length of time; if this is not possible for any reason, then you know that you are likely to miss out on some of your choices. At least the old system (though flawed and unpredictable itself) didn't make this potentially unreasonable demand.
                    This actually crossed my mind yesterday because I recalled the time when booking opened at 8am on Tuesday, May 4 2010!! I had to take the morning off work to do it.

                    Can you seriously imagine anything more bone-headed than booking opening that day? What's more it was the day after the Bank Holiday as well! Unbelievable!

                    Your point is a good one. I just had to shuffle around my Saturday routine yesterday to accommodate it but there is no getting away from the fact that if you want the tickets then you have to do whatever it takes to get them and that means being at your computer at 9am!
                    "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

                    Comment

                    • Anastasius
                      Full Member
                      • Mar 2015
                      • 1860

                      Interesting. Looking at the tweets on the RAH page, hitting refresh would not get you into the site if you had got to the Busy page. You had to enter royalalberthall.com again - which is what I did butmight explain why some people had difficulty. It still does not address the fact that the system is Not Fit For Purpose.
                      Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                      Comment

                      • Eine Alpensinfonie
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 20575

                        How about staggering the ticket sales in weekly slots, rather than issuing all Proms tickets on a single day?

                        Comment

                        • Anastasius
                          Full Member
                          • Mar 2015
                          • 1860

                          Just remembered another Tweet where in reply to a query about credit cards failing replied

                          We are sorry to hear of your payment problems. There are unfortunately compatibility issues with some browsers and devices.

                          What a feeble excuse. If that was the case then many e-commerce sites would fail. No RAH , it is your systems. Not Fit For Purpose.
                          Last edited by Anastasius; 18-05-15, 05:00.
                          Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                          Comment

                          • Rcartes
                            Full Member
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 194

                            I was out for the weekend after the 9.00 am fun and have only just got back; meanwhile it's grown to 12 pages!

                            It seems the answer to my original query in starting this thread is that it was indeed just luck that enabled me to finish the process in 7 minutes: someone else wasn't through until about 11.30. It does seem that RAH could try to learn from experience this year (and last), and increase the capacity of their servers. Or stagger things in some way, say by separating out the obvious crowd-pleasers like last year's Dr Who prom....

                            Comment

                            • Anastasius
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2015
                              • 1860

                              Has anyone got their email confirmation yet? Are they sending them out?
                              Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                              Comment

                              • Anastasius
                                Full Member
                                • Mar 2015
                                • 1860

                                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                                How about staggering the ticket sales in weekly slots, rather than issuing all Proms tickets on a single day?
                                But then if you wanted tickets in each week you would have to go through all that pain seven or eight times! No, the answer is much simpler. RAH - please beef up your Waiting Room servers.
                                Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                                Comment

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