Proms 2015: Today's the day

[Bryn]

When my eye spotted the word "Leifs" I was hoping it would be followed by "Hekla" but that was probably asking too much of the Proms budget these days.

The organ concerto is chamber music by comparison, but should still make an impact!

The emphasis surely on "by comparison"?

It is difficult not to hear pre-echoes of Hekla in the finale of this transitional work originating in Leifs's student days but completed in the early days of his mature style. I expect the Voice of Jupiter to do it proud.

[Darkbloom]

I think we expect too much of the Proms each year; I can't think of anything comparable that comes in for such scrutiny and criticism each time the brochure comes out. I felt the same when I looked at the programme when it came out - that there wasn't much to tempt me. But then I seem to feel that every year and still end up going to around 10 or so concerts. I like the unaccompanied Bach concerts, and I will certainly be going to those, and also Orfeo. I used to be interested each year in what big name orchestras they were going to have lined up, but having been to too many merely adequate concerts by bands with big reputations, who are clearly going through the motions and just read to go home, I am more interested in what interesting concerts there are, regardless of who the orchestra is. Good to see Runnicles back again for a couple, as he is someone who has grown on me over the years, and usually delivers - his Salome last year was excellent, even if the Mahler 9 earlier on was a little below that standard.

People are inevitably going to feel that their own pet composers have been neglected, but that is just part of life, and we can't expect a Proms season tailored to our own specific requirements.

[MrGongGong]

I think part of the "problem" (I don't really think that there is one) is that some folks are under the misunderstanding that the Proms is a "Classical Music" festival.
If you look at the history it's always included all sorts of other things.
The other thing that seems odd to me is that folks (and I'm as guilty as anyone sometimes) seem to approach it as a chance to go and ONLY hear your favourite music rather than an opportunity to find things you didn't know. One of the joys of going to festivals is the chance to encounter things you wouldn't normally hear, last year I was working at the Verbier festival and went to hear the Ébène Quartet play a whole sequence of Mozart quartets. This isn't really music that I would normally go and choose to hear but it was a tremendous performance by musicians who really believe in it, THAT'S what communicates and is inspiring. IMV

(but I probably still won't go to hear that one Beefo as i'm waiting for the Laibach version)

[Ferretfancy]

I think we expect too much of the Proms each year; I can't think of anything comparable that comes in for such scrutiny and criticism each time the brochure comes out. I felt the same when I looked at the programme when it came out - that there wasn't much to tempt me. But then I seem to feel that every year and still end up going to around 10 or so concerts. I like the unaccompanied Bach concerts, and I will certainly be going to those, and also Orfeo. I used to be interested each year in what big name orchestras they were going to have lined up, but having been to too many merely adequate concerts by bands with big reputations, who are clearly going through the motions and just read to go home, I am more interested in what interesting concerts there are, regardless of who the orchestra is. Good to see Runnicles back again for a couple, as he is someone who has grown on me over the years, and usually delivers - his Salome last year was excellent, even if the Mahler 9 earlier on was a little below that standard.

People are inevitably going to feel that their own pet composers have been neglected, but that is just part of life, and we can't expect a Proms season tailored to our own specific requirements.

I agree with you completely, and that's perhaps an explanation of my outburst in message 81. It's completely obvious that if, say, you expect the complete symphonies of Robert Simpson you are bound to be disappointed.

It's a great achievement by the BBC, operating on a modest budget, that they are able to sign up so many fine artists and commission new works every year.

I'm very aware of the fact that most people living at home are simply unaware of the cost of broadcasting on both radio and TV. In this respect the Proms are an enormous bargain. Back in the 1990s when I left the BBC, the average cost of a daytime TV Chat show with a few people on a sofa cost about £60,000 an hour, while drama scripts often approach a million.

So, there we are. We will be getting all the Beethoven Piano Concertos, half a dozen great Mozart concertos, Orfeo, The Seraglio, Sibelius symphonies, a Prokofiev Marathon, the list goes on and still they grumble.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I agree with you completely, and that's perhaps an explanation of my outburst in message 81. It's completely obvious that if, say, you expect the complete symphonies of Robert Simpson you are bound to be disappointed.

It's a great achievement by the BBC, operating on a modest budget, that they are able to sign up so many fine artists and commission new works every year.

I'm very aware of the fact that most people living at home are simply unaware of the cost of broadcasting on both radio and TV. In this respect the Proms are an enormous bargain. Back in the 1990s when I left the BBC, the average cost of a daytime TV Chat show with a few people on a sofa cost about £60,000 an hour, while drama scripts often approach a million.

So, there we are. We will be getting all the Beethoven Piano Concertos, half a dozen great Mozart concertos, Orfeo, The Seraglio, Sibelius symphonies, a Prokofiev Marathon, the list goes on and still they grumble.

Please see my earlier response, which hasn't been commented upon I see. NO we don't expect a Simpson or an Arnold cycle, or a Proms tailored to what we like, this is thrown at those of us who dislike the current season all of the time. The Proms is one of very few opportunities to mix some less well known works in, with familiar. Yes there is some of this, but not a huge amount, and its not always particularly well programmed. The Prokofiev 4th & 5th concertos are rarities, but if the concertos are performed in numerical order, there is the risk that new listeners may not give them their full attention to them, which is a must, as three piano concertos in a row beforehand might be too much to take, let alone having two more unfamiliar concertos afterwards, for the same combination though of course the 4th is lh only). The familiar 3rd needs to be last, I would programme them, 1, 4, 2, 5 & 3. Surely we can give The Planets, The Rite, & Mahler a rest for one year??? A complete Nielsen Symphony Cycle would have been more adventurous than the predictable Sibelius one, even though I love Sibelius' music.

[Honoured Guest]

Surely we can give The Planets, The Rite, & Mahler a rest for one year??? A complete Nielsen Symphony Cycle would have been more adventurous than the predictable Sibelius one, even though I love Sibelius' music.

The Planets - BBCSO, plus Boulez (17 mins) & Francesconi UK premiere (26 mins)

What size of audience would come to hear the Boulez and the Francesconi premiere without the Holst warhorse?
Would the heavily used BBCSO be able to prepare a full evening of unfamiliar and new music to as high a standard?

The Rite of Spring - Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, plus Ørjan Matre world premiere (12 mins), Mendelssohn (26 mins) & Firsova (10 mins)

Can an unfamiliar orchestra be best appraised in a mixed programme of familiar, specialist and new music?

Mahler - four works in 76 concerts

Not too excessive. Might you give Mahler a rest by attending the other 72 concerts?

[Pulcinella]

The Planets - BBCSO, plus Boulez (17 mins) & Francesconi UK premiere (26 mins)

What size of audience would come to hear the Boulez and the Francesconi premiere without the Holst warhorse?
Would the heavily used BBCSO be able to prepare a full evening of unfamiliar and new music to as high a standard?

The Rite of Spring - Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, plus Ørjan Matre world premiere (12 mins), Mendelssohn (26 mins) & Firsova (10 mins)

Can an unfamiliar orchestra be best appraised in a mixed programme of familiar, specialist and new music?

Mahler - four works in 76 concerts

Not too excessive. Might you give Mahler a rest by attending the other 72 concerts?

But isn't the question more the following?
What SORT of audience would come to hear.......?
Unlikely to satisfy those who would want to hear The Planets or those who want the other pieces I suspect. I'm all for including less familiar pieces with more familiar ones, but do the more familiar ones have to be quite so familiar? And please don't tell us that we need only attend half the concert.

[Honoured Guest]

But isn't the question more the following?
What SORT of audience would come to hear.......?
Unlikely to satisfy those who would want to hear The Planets or those who want the other pieces I suspect. I'm all for including less familiar pieces with more familiar ones, but do the more familiar ones have to be quite so familiar? And please don't tell us that we need only attend half the concert.

What would you prefer to be programmed beside the Boulez work and the Francesconi premiere in this BBCSO concert in the RAH as part of the BBC Proms?

[Pulcinella]

What would you prefer to be programmed beside the Boulez work and the Francesconi premiere in this BBCSO concert in the RAH as part of the BBC Proms?

I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions.

[Ferretfancy]

Please see my earlier response, which hasn't been commented upon I see. NO we don't expect a Simpson or an Arnold cycle, or a Proms tailored to what we like, this is thrown at those of us who dislike the current season all of the time. The Proms is one of very few opportunities to mix some less well known works in, with familiar. Yes there is some of this, but not a huge amount, and its not always particularly well programmed. The Prokofiev 4th & 5th concertos are rarities, but if the concertos are performed in numerical order, there is the risk that new listeners may not give them their full attention to them, which is a must, as three piano concertos in a row beforehand might be too much to take, let alone having two more unfamiliar concertos afterwards, for the same combination though of course the 4th is lh only). The familiar 3rd needs to be last, I would programme them, 1, 4, 2, 5 & 3. Surely we can give The Planets, The Rite, & Mahler a rest for one year??? A complete Nielsen Symphony Cycle would have been more adventurous than the predictable Sibelius one, even though I love Sibelius' music.

I see your argument about the Prokofiev concertos, I only hope that the piano survives the onslaught of No. 2's first movement cadenza. I thought it might collapse when Alexander Toradze played this concerto a couple of years ago.

As for Nielsen, there is already a cycle of the symphonies in progress at the Barbican, with Sakari Oramo and the BBC SO, all of them broadcast. The performance of the 5th a couple of weeks ago was stunning. Instead, the planners have scheduled the less well known Nielsen concertos for flute, clarinet and violin, plus Springtime on Funen, the Helios Overture and several other works. I'm especially looking forward to the Violin Concerto, which is far too little known.

It's only a small gem, but I never thought I'd hear a live performance of Gunther Schuller's Seven Studies on Themes of Paul Klee, a nice supplement to Tate Modern's Klee exhibition a while back.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Mixed programming, done imaginatively, is, in my opinion, more likely to broaden the outlook of concert-goers than saturation programming. Three concerts with nothing but Sibelius symphonies; Mozart's last three symphonies; Beethoven Sonatas in 10 recitals; Boulez's all-serial Round House concerts. It's lazy programming.

My first introduction to Berg's music was the Chamber Concerto in the same concert as The Planets. It was the Berg that remained in my consciousness, even though I attended the concert because my father thought I'd like to hear The Planets.

[Beef Oven!]

Mixed programming, done imaginatively, is, in my opinion, more likely to broaden the outlook of concert-goers than saturation programming. Three concerts with nothing but Sibelius symphonies; Mozart's last three symphonies; Beethoven Sonatas in 10 recitals; Boulez's all-serial Round House concerts. It's lazy programming.

My first introduction to Berg's music was the Chamber Concerto in the same concert as The Planets. It was the Berg that remained in my consciousness, even though I attended the concert because my father thought I'd like to hear The Planets.

It's hard to know what's best. There are certainly advantages of sneaking the Berg into The Planets gig, as was your experience. But there's a few Proms this year that I'm not sure if I'll go because I don't want to sit through a Mozart piano concerto. And there's one that I might leave at half time.

Edit: I love Mozart and enjoy his piano concertos, it's just that that's not where I'm at. Musically speaking, this summer. Probably will go through a Mozart piano concerto obsession next year!

Also, I think it's a bit over the top to think of a concert of Finlandia, and symphonies 1 & 2 as ''saturation programming" !!!!

[Suffolkcoastal]

My point about Mahler is that we have his music every season, I think its been over 40 years since there has been a Mahler free Proms, and his tiny output in number of works is regularly dragged out in the concert seasons of many orchestras these days anyway. In recent years we've had Bruckner, F J Haydn & Mendelssohn free proms, why should Mahler be exempt if these composers weren't? With anniversaries, the season tends to focus on just a couple of composers, usually the most obvious, with the odd piece or 2 or 3 others. If in over 70 concerts this year, you should at least accommodate the odd work by Glazunov, Taneyev, Diamond & Magnard? I do take ferrets point about the Nielsen, but feel that we didn't need a full Sibelius cycle either, why not Pohjolas Daughter, The Bard, Luonnotar, Lemminkainen Suite, Scenes Historiques instead of a couple of the symphonies?
Concert planning is as I've pointed an issue. There was a fantastic opportunity to put together RVWs Sancta Civitas with Walton's BF, the works share some text, both use spacial effects, both have Baritone soloists. As both works are the only choral works in those concerts and both at around 35 minutes duration, it seems a poor use of resources, if you're only using the chorus for part of one half of a concert.

[Beef Oven!]

My point about Mahler is that we have his music every season, I think its been over 40 years since there has been a Mahler free Proms, and his tiny output in number of works is regularly dragged out in the concert seasons of many orchestras these days anyway. In recent years we've had Bruckner, F J Haydn & Mendelssohn free proms, why should Mahler be exempt if these composers weren't? With anniversaries, the season tends to focus on just a couple of composers, usually the most obvious, with the odd piece or 2 or 3 others. If in over 70 concerts this year, you should at least accommodate the odd work by Glazunov, Taneyev, Diamond & Magnard? I do take ferrets point about the Nielsen, but feel that we didn't need a full Sibelius cycle either, why not Pohjolas Daughter, The Bard, Luonnotar, Lemminkainen Suite, Scenes Historiques instead of a couple of the symphonies?
Concert planning is as I've pointed an issue. There was a fantastic opportunity to put together RVWs Sancta Civitas with Walton's BF, the works share some text, both use spacial effects, both have Baritone soloists. As both works are the only choral works in those concerts and both at around 35 minutes duration, it seems a poor use of resources, if you're only using the chorus for part of one half of a concert.

I had the same thoughts about Mahler. Unlike yourself, I'm actually very keen on Mahler's music. But why is it that he's a standing item on all Proms seasons? As you say, we've had Brucknerless seasons and this time we get M1, M5, M6, M9 and just Mass#3 and symphony #7 for Bruckner.

[Darkbloom]

It's hard to decide who is more unloved by today's concert programmers - Haydn or Bruckner. They are both treated pretty shabbily, and I also think it is a shame that there was not greater effort made to give Nielsen a bit more of an airing, as he is very approachable, and the third and fourth are such life-enhancing works that it is a pity that they couldn't be squeezed in. But at the same time, as a fairly regular Proms attendee, it is not much fun going to a concert that is more than half empty, and despite the fact that there need not be such an emphasis on the bottom line in a season that is subsidised by the licence fee, we surely have to respect the fact that the organisers need to keep that very large hall reasonably full.