Proms 2015: Today's the day

[french frank]

http://www.theguardian.com/music/mus...of-imagination

Any thoughts? See last para particularly.

"The spectre of hearing all five of Prokofiev’s piano concertos and all Bach’s cello suites performed in single evenings fills me with dread. Does this programming do the music any favours? I’d argue not. But, boy, it looks good on paper. These are “events”! Something to capture the headlines … "

No thought, particularly, on the concerts mentioned (not quite clear from clicking on his name, where Philip Clark is 'coming from', musically; but that certainly explains The Twelve Days of Mozart &c - they are "events").

It's also not true to say that the Proms are "rudderless": there is an acting Director who's being doing his job for years, and ultimate responsibility is with the controller of Radio 3.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I am dubious about the Prokofiev Prom. But lots of folk were about the RVW 4/5/6 prom , which was , by general consensus , a success.

Maybe some deeper level of thought went into planning the RVW Prom.

I couldn't care less what KD gets up to around it, because I have an off button, ( actually a bewildering array on the various remotes I need to use if its on the telly) and I won't be watching her, or Dave Lee Service, or any of the others, prolly.

The RVW 4,5 & 6 worked well because the RVW symphonic cycle is itself a journey and each of the symphonies both contrasts and compliments its neighbour and was advocated by the late Michael Kennedy many years ago.

The Prokofiev concertos are strongly contrasted and there is a danger as I pointed out earlier that the more unfamiliar 4 & 5 will be overshadowed by the better known 1 & 3 if played chronologically, which would be a grave mistake to do. Also the combination of Piano & Orchestra (albeit left handed in No 4) can be quite a wearing one on the ear, especially with Prokofiev's distinctive, brittle piano writing. I welcome performances of nos 4 & 5, but not as presented in this case. I don't think it does Prokofiev any favours and agree that its more of a publicity stunt, rather typical of RWs way of programming.

[Norrette]

The Prokofiev concertos are strongly contrasted and there is a danger as I pointed out earlier that the more unfamiliar 4 & 5 will be overshadowed by the better known 1 & 3 if played chronologically, which would be a grave mistake to do.

I wonder if the order might be changed by Gergiev, and that perhaps all 5 were simply listed in numerical order because the program hadn't been firmed up yet? Or is this just wishful thinking on my part. I'm in the mood for Prokofiev piano this year, so I'm tempted.

I suppose that Bach needs the intimacy of a late night prom, but it's too late to get home on public transport. Might have to drive in for some of these. Also tempted by the Yoyo Ma 'event'.

I'm a serious Sibelius fan - but even I think that his 5th and 7th have had plenty of outings recently.

It's time I got to know Bruckner and Brahms better - looks like this might not be the year for that. Also toddling-off to spotify to see if I might like Gerontius - embarassed to admit I've never heard it...

[Barbirollians]

Your assumption is completely incorrect, based as it is on further unwarranted assumptions: that I'm only interested in attending concerts of "the type of music he composes" and that my musical preferences are limited to that "type" of music. What I meant by "slim pickings" is that nothing in the programme really excites me particularly.

Not an assumption at all . You stated slim pickings as usual ? So that apparently means that nothing in a Proms programme usually excites you . Considering the width of the Proms coverage from Lachenmann to Lalo ( in fact Lalo has had a raw deal recently ) and from Monteverdi to Boulez I am somewhat baffled by such a sweeping statement unless indeed it is a complaint that music that is the meat and drink to HCMF for example is not in the programme ?

[Beef Oven!]

I am dubious about the Prokofiev Prom. But lots of folk were about the RVW 4/5/6 prom , which was , by general consensus , a success.

Maybe some deeper level of thought went into planning the RVW Prom.

I couldn't care less what KD gets up to around it, because I have an off button, ( actually a bewildering array on the various remotes I need to use if its on the telly) and I won't be watching her, or Dave Lee Service, or any of the others, prolly.

I understand the concern, but I personally have no problem with it. The day after day Sibelius/Rattle symphonies went swimmingly and people have been very enthusiastic (on here, too) about the complete Shostakovich string quartets in a day, and three of us from the forum had no difficulty with four hours of Sorabji last year. I've sat through a few Parsifals, the odd Walkure etc. why not?

Does it do the music any favours, programming it like this? I say yes, absolutely.

[Beef Oven!]

Not an assumption at all . You stated slim pickings as usual ? So that apparently means that nothing in a Proms programme usually excites you . Considering the width of the Proms coverage from Lachenmann to Lalo ( in fact Lalo has had a raw deal recently ) and from Monteverdi to Boulez I am somewhat baffled by such a sweeping statement unless indeed it is a complaint that music that is the meat and drink to HCMF for example is not in the programme ?

Programming a Lachenmann and a Boulez and a few others into a two month long festival of over 100 concerts, means that the "width of the Proms coverage" that you refer to is nonsense.

I'm sorry to hear that "Lalo has had a raw deal recently"

[Richard Barrett]

Programming a Lachenmann and a Boulez and a few others into a two month long festival of over 100 concerts, means that the "width of the Proms coverage" that you refer to is nonsense.

You took the words out of my mouth.

There was an interesting article in today's Guardian by Philip Clark, not a critic I normally have much time for, who hits the nail on the head by saying that the Proms are no longer primarily about music, the Proms are about the Proms. I would post a link except the article seems to have been taken down!

I am not comparing the Proms of the 21st century with some weird kind of utopian new-music-geek vision as Barbirollians seems to have become convinced. I am comparing them for example with the Proms of the 1970s and 1980s.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There was an interesting article in today's Guardian by Philip Clark, not a critic I normally have much time for, who hits the nail on the head by saying that the Proms are no longer primarily about music, the Proms are about the Proms.

It's worse than that. The Proms are about the BBC.

[Honoured Guest]

I am not comparing the Proms of the 21st century with some weird kind of utopian new-music-geek vision as Barbirollians seems to have become convinced. I am comparing them for example with the Proms of the 1970s and 1980s.

If there's truly still today a public demand for this sort of concert series you heard 30 or 40 years ago, but which the Proms as an entity has moved on from, then it would be helpful to likeminded listeners to inform them where the nearest equivalent can be found today. I asked someone on here the same question about a week ago and they said they were going to walk up hills in the Lake District instead, but surely that's a defeatist attitude. I refuse to believe that the decriers of today's Proms can't suggest a few alternative concerts or concert series more to their taste, albeit not on the same epic scale of 76 concerts in a 5,000-plus hall.

[Barbirollians]

You took the words out of my mouth.

There was an interesting article in today's Guardian by Philip Clark, not a critic I normally have much time for, who hits the nail on the head by saying that the Proms are no longer primarily about music, the Proms are about the Proms. I would post a link except the article seems to have been taken down!

I am not comparing the Proms of the 21st century with some weird kind of utopian new-music-geek vision as Barbirollians seems to have become convinced. I am comparing them for example with the Proms of the 1970s and 1980s.

Relying on Beef Oven is hardly credible argument . So what is different - is your objection to the small number of themed Proms ? Your statement was slim pickings as usual - what repertoire therefore is missing ? Lack of new commissions or is it that the new commissions are not to your taste . It seems that you are unable to come up with specifics

[ahinton]

There was an interesting article in today's Guardian by Philip Clark, not a critic I normally have much time for, who hits the nail on the head by saying that the Proms are no longer primarily about music, the Proms are about the Proms. I would post a link except the article seems to have been taken down!

Is this what you refer to? - http://www.theguardian.com/music/mus...of-imagination - it seems to view OK from here.

Clark makes some valid points. without doubt, even if some are couched in a kind of semi-Lebrechtian attention-seeking prose, although much as I warm to his "inexplicably feted Eric Whitacre" and "something for "Prom Queen" Katie Derham to preen about in her One Show-styled Proms chatshow", I'm far less sure what he means by the his description of the music of Colin Matthews (who's represented solely by the première of his latest string quartet and a 4-minute Ravel arrangment) and Mark-Anthony Turnage as "domesticated"; are there cats involved, or something? I think that Clark has put his finger on something but seems to me to have left as many questions unanswered at the end as there might have been at the beginning.

[Richard Barrett]

what repertoire therefore is missing ? Lack of new commissions or is it that the new commissions are not to your taste . It seems that you are unable to come up with specifics

Why are you making such a fuss about my saying that Proms programming this year is "slim pickings as usual" as far as I'm concerned? (I'm not "relying" on Beef Oven, I'm agreeing with him. I believe there is a clear difference between these.) I think there should be more commissions. I think they, and contemporary/20th century music in general, should be distributed between more than a few "usual suspects." I think more attention should be given to a wider chronological range of music, and a wider geographical range also, reflecting other "classical" traditions as well as the Western. I think there is too much concentration on "core repertoire". I think a festival of this size has more latitude than most to take risks and try new forms of concert presentation (by which I don't mean the blatantly commercial TV-linked concerts which have crept in in recent years, but there's room for those too). All of this is once more with reference to the kind of programmes the Proms had a few decades ago. Is that "specific" enough for you?

[Barbirollians]

Why are you making such a fuss about my saying that Proms programming this year is "slim pickings as usual" as far as I'm concerned? (I'm not "relying" on Beef Oven, I'm agreeing with him. I believe there is a clear difference between these.) I think there should be more commissions. I think they, and contemporary/20th century music in general, should be distributed between more than a few "usual suspects." I think more attention should be given to a wider chronological range of music, and a wider geographical range also, reflecting other "classical" traditions as well as the Western. I think there is too much concentration on "core repertoire". I think a festival of this size has more latitude than most to take risks and try new forms of concert presentation (by which I don't mean the blatantly commercial TV-linked concerts which have crept in in recent years, but there's room for those too). All of this is once more with reference to the kind of programmes the Proms had a few decades ago. Is that "specific" enough for you?

Thanks

1 Who are the usual suspects ( apart I assume from the Matthews brothers ! )

2 As for 20th century music in general I am afraid that bums on seats will always influence the Proms so do not expect to see a decline in the programming of Mahler and Shostakovich any time soon .

3 As for wider chronological range the Albert Hall by its nature makes much early music very difficult to programme there I imagine

4 The same might also be said of non-western classical music too I suppose - Indian traditional music in particular springs to mind

5 New forms of concert presentation - doesn't that really mean contemporary works with a multi media aspect ?

6 Core répertoire - I suppose there is the rub . The Proms began of course absolutely awash with Wagner and core repertoire has always played a part . In the recent financially straightened times for the BBC is it realistic to expect significant abandonment of core repertoire especially where that is used as the inducement to get audiences to come and hear new works ( though I pity the composer of the new commission this year whose work has found itself in a concert with Carmina Burana)

7 Finally , what sort of works from the 1960s, 70s and 80s are missing from today's proms .

On the other hand , the price of Prommer's ticket it £5 - that gives people the opportunity of hearing great works played by great orchestras for very little money . That is surely one of the most important principles of the Proms and for core repertoire for some - it is the door to the whole world of classical music for others to hear a work from that repertoire .

[Richard Barrett]

I'm afraid I don't have the time to prepare an exhaustive answer to all your questions, but I will make a couple of observations.

To be precise on the "usual suspects" it would be useful to have access to a list of Proms commissions over the years; as far as I know none exists in easily-accessible form. (Although if anyone knows more than I do about this it would be good to hear from you!)

The Albert Hall is an unsuitable venue for almost anything and, as I've said here and elsewhere ad nauseam, the best thing to do with it would be to gut it and put a concert hall there instead.

When the Proms began, Wagner had been dead for only 12 years. His work was "new music" about which there was still a considerable controversy among both musicians and audiences.

[Beef Oven!]

the price of Prommer's ticket it £5 - that gives people the opportunity of hearing great works played by great orchestras for very little money . That is surely one of the most important principles of the Proms and for core repertoire for some - it is the door to the whole world of classical music for others to hear a work from that repertoire .

All the more reason why a greater diversity of music should be programmed. ........ and there's nothing core about the 'core' music you have in mind.