Prom 75 - 12.09.14: Cerha / Beethoven 9, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, etc., Gilbert

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely not someone else creeping back under a pseudonym after they flounced off in a huff?

Oh, let's be careful - I owe (and offer) Blotto an apology, either because I attributed his prose to a previous member who is much missed by many on this Forum, or because, if he is said previous Forumista, he has every right to rejoin under whichever terms he wishes and not have some smart ar ... err ... alec pointing out the re-emergence. If the latter is the case, then there's no good can come of reopening former quarrels. My apologies, again.

[Flosshilde]

OK - I'll delete if you do.

[Blotto]

Dear f,

I think this post came too hot on the heels of an exasperrated one a couple of nights ago about the English Music concert, which led in turn to this bit of mischief being misinterpreted somehow. I was amusing myself with a blunt parody of a particular sort of laboured grandiosity which tickles me when I see it.

"A swazzling froth of orchestral swishousness"

"We see Ourselves - spastic and knee-capped"

I thought the wording was so ridiculous that it would show. I'm very surprised to find I might have been too subtle (which is a fluke and will almost certainly never happen again).

Good wishes, b.

[Barbirollians]

Any comments on the balance/R3 broadcast? The cello appearance of the Ode theme v soft, but then the bassoon seemed extremely highlighted, rather unnaturally, perhaps.

"Dull is how Gilbert has sometimes been described, but this performance was anything but", according to Ivan Hewett. Must admit I liked the faster tempi.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...-beauties.html

Shows the subjectivity of music criticism - to my ears the first movement sounded trivial , the scherzo dull as ditchwater and that was a performance of the adagio that was earthbound and failed to move me at all .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Dear f,
I think this post came too hot on the heels of an exasperrated one a couple of nights ago about the English Music concert, which led in turn to this bit of mischief being misinterpreted somehow. I was amusing myself with a blunt parody of a particular sort of laboured grandiosity which tickles me when I see it.
I thought the wording was so ridiculous that it would show. I'm very surprised to find I might have been too subtle (which is a fluke and will almost certainly never happen again).
Good wishes, b.

Oh no, not at all (erm, which sounded more complimentary when I wrote it than it now reads). The style was uncannily like that of a former Forumista whose absence is much lamented - IIRC, he also had similar views on HIP performances of the Beethoven Ninth as were suggested by your post. Again, my apologies: I shall leave my first Post as it is, as it merely makes me look a bit of an ass.

As for Pet's sudden attack of the vapours about HIPP "ruining" the Symphony; well, as someone who adores the Karajan 1977 recording (and who listened to it only a couple of weeks ago) I can only say that some of us gullible (to use Alpie's rather loaded epithet) enough to enjoy the post-Wagnerian fashion for imposing slower speeds, altering the orchestration, ignoring the repeat marks etc etc etc on the score all in the name of "gravitas", also greatly enjoy the best performances which gullibly perform this Joyful Symphony as per the instructions in the score. The dancing celebration of Life suggested by the score becomes all the more impressive when one remembers the miseries that Beethoven endured in his own life. In the best HIPP performances, the worst exaggerated simplifications of "gravitas" are gladly forgotten.

I didn't think Mr Gilbert matched these standards in his performance: the First and Third Movements were well enough done, but the Scherzo (and especially the Trio) I thought was gabbled and not very well co-ordinated. But to blame this on HIPP discoveries is ridiculous.

[Petrushka]

As for Pet's sudden attack of the vapours about HIPP "ruining" the Symphony; well, as someone who adores the Karajan 1977 recording (and who listened to it only a couple of weeks ago) I can only say that some of us gullible (to use Alpie's rather loaded epithet) to enjoy the post-Wagnerian fashion for imposing slower speeds, altering the orchestration, ignoring the repeat marks etc etc etc on the score all in the name of "gravitas", also greatly enjoy the best performances which gullibly perform this Joyful Symphony as per the instructions in the score. The dancing celebration of Life suggested by the score becomes all the more impressive when one remembers the miseries that Beethoven endured in his own life. In the best HIPP performances, the worst exaggerated simplifications of "gravitas" are gladly forgotten.

I didn't think Mr Gilbert matched these standards in his performance: the First and Third Movements were well enough done, but the Scherzo (and especially the Trio) I thought was gabbled and not very well co-ordinated. But to blame this on HIPP discoveries is ridiculous.

I was on my phone in my hotel room and not really in a position to express myself properly.

From my seat high up in the Circle the first movement, in particular, sounded superficial, too fast, and, yes, lacking gravitas for want of a better word. Whether it was a peculiarity of my seat position I don't know but the strings lacked weight of tone and the timpani attack. Considering the power behind the timps in the previous night's Mahler this was very odd and must have been deliberate. There is a titanic drama being played out in this first movement but there was precious little of it on display here.

In saying that HIPP has 'ruined' this symphony I did not mean to imply that faster speeds, maintaining repeats etc are all nonsense. Rather, it is my view that orchestras and conductors now feel obliged to perform Beethoven (and Mozart, Haydn etc) in HIPP fashion whether they are convinced it is right or not. Are we never again to hear a live performance of the Beethoven 9 that has the full orchestral weight and electric drama of the greatest Prom performances I've heard: VPO/Abbado in 1987 and Chicago SO/Solti in 1996? There were times last night when I doubted if I was listening to a professional outfit, so poor did it sound and so woefully lacking in the thrill that this great work can, and should, give.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was hoping that this might be underlying your comment, Pet (it didn't really "sound" like "you"). But remember that Abbado didn't perform Beethoven's Ninth at the end of his life in the manner he did in 1987. The glories of the HIPP discoveries is that the Music is revealed in wonderful new ways to the receptive Musician - performing the work as it was done thirty and more years ago now sounds quaint: you'd need a reactionary like Thielemann (whose recorded performances at any rate give the impression that he's deliberately reacting against the HIPP style - or "fashion", if you prefer Alpie's terminology - rather than discovering new aspects of the older style) or a traditionalist such as Barenboim (who gave a lovely performance two years ago - pity about the soilo singers, but the choir and orchestra were brilliant; much preferable to Solti to my ears) or Welser-Möst. There's no evidence that Gilbert or any other conductor "now feel obliged to perform Beethoven (and Mozart, Haydn etc) in HIPP fashion whether they are convinced it is right or not": this is how most of the leading Musicians of our time genuinely feel the Music best "works".

[Barbirollians]

I was hoping that this might be underlying your comment, Pet (it didn't really "sound" like "you"). But remember that Abbado didn't perform Beethoven's Ninth at the end of his life in the manner he did in 1987. The glories of the HIPP discoveries is that the Music is revealed in wonderful new ways to the receptive Musician - performing the work as it was done thirty and more years ago now sounds quaint: you'd need a reactionary like Thielemann (whose recorded performances at any rate give the impression that he's deliberately reacting against the HIPP style - or "fashion", if you prefer Alpie's terminology - rather than discovering new aspects of the older style) or a traditionalist such as Barenboim (who gave a lovely performance two years ago - pity about the soilo singers, but the choir and orchestra were brilliant; much preferable to Solti to my ears) or Welser-Möst. There's no evidence that Gilbert or any other conductor "now feel obliged to perform Beethoven (and Mozart, Haydn etc) in HIPP fashion whether they are convinced it is right or not": this is how most of the leading Musicians of our time genuinely feel the Music best "works".

Judging by the recent DVD at the very end of his life Abbado reverted to slower Beethoven !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Judging by the recent DVD at the very end of his life Abbado reverted to slower Beethoven !

Ah! I haven't seen/heard that performance.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyroadup - for Pet, Barbi, Alpie and everyone else, here's Barenboim and the kids from two years ago. If nothing else, skip to 1hr & 1min: the most joyful choral singing I've ever heard in this piece - and the grin of gratitude on the conductor's face immediately afterwards; I've never seen him looking so happy at work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ32q2k8Uo

(If only the soloists had been up to the standards of everyone else ... )

[Nick Armstrong]

the most joyful choral singing I've ever heard in this piece - and the grin of gratitude on the conductor's face immediately afterwards; I've never seen him looking so happy at work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ32q2k8Uo

:zauber:

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

:zauber:

Seid umschlungen

[Petrushka]

Anyroadup - for Pet, Barbi, Alpie and everyone else, here's Barenboim and the kids from two years ago. If nothing else, skip to 1hr & 1min: the most joyful choral singing I've ever heard in this piece - and the grin of gratitude on the conductor's face immediately afterwards; I've never seen him looking so happy at work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ32q2k8Uo

(If only the soloists had been up to the standards of everyone else ... )

I was present at this and it was light years away from the Gewandhaus Prom. I've been in the hall for some very boring LvB 9s including one from Ferdinand Leitner and the LSO in 1983 and Sir Colin Davis and the LSO (again!) in 1999. Neither came off the page.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Does Furtwangler sound "quaint"?
Using adjectives like that cam sound insulting.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does Furtwangler sound "quaint"?
Using adjectives like that cam sound insulting.

As opposed to the universal respect demonstrated in "gullibility"?