Prom 74 - 11.09.14: Rufus Wainwright, Britten Sinfonia, Debus

[Serial_Apologist]

Tiresome yes, ts but probably talented! But who knows why Beefy likes or dislikes anyone?

And tbh who cares?

[Petrushka]

And tbh who cares?

Oh I don't know. I'm sure we all have 'Forum friends' whose recommendations we have come to trust, rather like I used to do with Gramophone critics back in the day.

[teamsaint]

Oh I don't know. I'm sure we all have 'Forum friends' whose recommendations we have come to trust, rather like I used to do with Gramophone critics back in the day.

Yup, one of the best , and most important things about the forum is the recommendations and guidance.

And to occasionally be able to reciprocate !!

[Beef Oven!]

Some of the most amazing people I have met have been Canadians!

Obviously not a Southpark fan, are you?

[Beef Oven!]

I spotted the opportunity to go to two Proms that night (Mahler 3 earlier), so have booked for them both. I completely agree with Beef Oven - not my usual taste in music, but Rufus has something special. His Judy Garland show, shown on television a few months ago, was amazing.

And who could forget the closing song in The History Boys film?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA0pP1nBmFk

Great link, many thanks, Vodkadilk

[Blotto]

The distinctions between talented and well connected are not always clear ....

This is a short and tenderly lovely song, I think (though the quality of reproduction is not high). Read in a natural speaking voice, the lyrics are free verse and always touch me whether I say them myself or hear them sung by Wainwright. I've always assumed that his singing voice was influenced by Thom Yorke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIw6FH9BYkU

"Beauty Mark" is an ode to Wainwright's mother, the title referring to the mole above her lip. Chris Yurkiw of the Montreal Mirror considered the track to be the most moving love song on the album, with an "overt and open-hearted" reference to his homosexuality: "I may not be so manly, but still I know you love me."

Beauty Mark

I never had it,
I never wanted it,
I never had your beauty mark.
Nor did I have your black hair
And hazel eyes.

My early childhood was not as simple
As yours, set in the country.
No, I did not have a fear of nuns who dressed in black.

But I do have your taste.

I had no radio show
Nor did I have home-made clothes,
Home-made curtains of the same material.

I never had it,
I never wanted it,
I never had your beauty mark.

But I do have your taste.
And I do have your red face and long hands.

I think Callas sang a lovely "Norma";
You prefer Robeson in "Deep River".
I may not be so manly
But still I know you love me
Even if I don't have your beauty mark.

[teamsaint]

This is a short and tenderly lovely song, I think (though the quality of reproduction is not high). Read in a natural speaking voice, the lyrics are free verse and always touch me whether I say them myself or hear them sung by Wainwright. I've always assumed that his singing voice was influenced by Thom Yorke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIw6FH9BYkU

Beauty Mark

I never had it,
I never wanted it,
I never had your beauty mark.
Nor did I have your black hair
And hazel eyes.

My early childhood was not as simple
As yours, set in the country.
No, I did not have a fear of nuns who dressed in black.

But I do have your taste.

I had no radio show
Nor did I have home-made clothes,
Home-made curtains of the same material.

I never had it,
I never wanted it,
I never had your beauty mark.

But I do have your taste.
And I do have your red face and long hands.

I think Callas sang a lovely "Norma";
You prefer Robeson in "Deep River".
I may not be so manly
But still I know you love me
Even if I don't have your beauty mark.

Cheers Blotto. Will give that a go. Even among one's less than favourite musicians there is usually something to enjoy.

Edit: And I have to say I did like this song . Nicely put together.

[pureimagination]

Why were so many posters queuing up to tell us they're not going to the prom? Who gives a ___? You don't like Rufus Wainwright okay but at least offer a critique rather than a (adopts voice of Andy from Little Britain) "I don't like it" attitude. We all know that the Proms is going to be more than just classical music despite it's claim to be the greatest classical music event etc etc. I always expected those who enjoy classical music to be broadminded, respectful and not to be petty-minded snobs.

[teamsaint]

Why were so many posters queuing up to tell us they're not going to the prom? Who gives a ___? You don't like Rufus Wainwright okay but at least offer a critique rather than a (adopts voice of Andy from Little Britain) "I don't like it" attitude. We all know that the Proms is going to be more than just classical music despite it's claim to be the greatest classical music event etc etc. I always expected those who enjoy classical music to be broadminded, respectful and not to be petty-minded snobs.

perhaps they had genuine concerns about musical quality, ticket sales, the use of public money etc.

all the issues, in fact ,that get so routinely aired on here.

Personally, I posted what I did in the sort of vague hope that somebody would convince me about Rufus' musical worth.


Not quite sure why you expected Classical music lovers to be broadminded, any more than Jazz fiends, Rockers, folkies, or whatever, really.

Hope might be a better state of mind than expectation here?

Incidentally, discussing Rufus Wainwright, I have approached his music in a really open minded way, ( I hope) on a number of occasions. In the end, really, compared to many other similar acts, (who might also be described as musically unadventurous), I just don't really like most of his music , although I feel sure if I trawled his back catalogue I would find more to enjoy. In this case, why critique his work? Fans won't suddenly go off him, and I wouldn't convert anybody .
A fair minded review of the concert from a fair minded standpoint might be some use, of course.

[pureimagination]

perhaps they had genuine concerns about musical quality, ticket sales, the use of public money etc.

all the issues, in fact ,that get so routinely aired on here.

Personally, I posted what I did in the sort of vague hope that somebody would convince me about Rufus' musical worth.


Not quite sure why you expected Classical music lovers to be broadminded, any more than Jazz fiends, Rockers, folkies, or whatever, really.

Hope might be a better state of mind than expectation here?

Incidentally, discussing Rufus Wainwright, I have approached his music in a really open minded way, ( I hope) on a number of occasions. In the end, really, compared to many other similar acts, (who might also be described as musically unadventurous), I just don't really like most of his music , although I feel sure if I trawled his back catalogue I would find more to enjoy. In this case, why critique his work? Fans won't suddenly go off him, and I wouldn't convert anybody .
A fair minded review of the concert from a fair minded standpoint might be some use, of course.

Musical quality (A very subjective term. Don't think you'll find a shared consensus). Ticket sales (proms organisers seem okay to take the gamble). Use of public money (that's a whole debate in itself)
Many classical music lovers (in my experience) can be quite dismissive of someone's opinions that don't tally with theirs (almost like they're trying to say you're not clever enough to understand)
I have no problem with you not liking Rufus Wainwright's music (at least you gave your reasons - unlike some others).

[Blotto]

Cheers Blotto. Will give that a go. Even among one's less than favourite musicians there is usually something to enjoy.

Edit: And I have to say I did like this song . Nicely put together.

It is a neat, well-written little piece, I think. I like it very much but I also admire it for how much mixed emotion it communicates in its two minutes.

I'm not sure that 'beauty mark' refers simply to a beauty spot but more comprehensively to the mark of his mother's beauty. It's mostly a song about their differences and something he hasn't inherited from Kate McGarrigle is her looks. Instead, he has her 'red face' - not a thing he'd necessarily want.

But there's something in the slowing and the mournfulness of the delivery that's both sad ("But I do have your red face") and tender (it comes from you who, "though I may not be so manly, still I know you love me".).

It always touches me, even when I think of it.

[french frank]

I always expected those who enjoy classical music to be broadminded, respectful and not to be petty-minded snobs.

Team has covered some of this in his reply. Classical music lovers are not special in the respects you outline, even those who are, indeed, narrow-minded and disrespectful. They are only different in that others tend not to be called 'snobs' on the grounds that they are dismissive of music which isn't to their taste. There is an element of 'My team is better than your team, 'rah' ' among 'people' in general.

You say:

We all know that the Proms is going to be more than just classical music

But we don't know that is HAS to be like that - what we 'knew' was that the last Director was keen to increase the number of current popular/pop performers in 'his' Proms. Just as 'his' Radio 3 leapt at opportunities to connect with Justin Bieber, One Direction, Little Mix and the Radio 6 Music presenters with their choices.

I don't think people were 'queueing up' to say they wouldn't be going: forum discussions do have some thread, and people simply responded to one member saying he was gutted NOT to be able to go. To which you might equally reply, Who gives a ___? I presume.

[Barbirollians]

RW is a great talent though I have to admit to having found his opera rather hard work .

I should recommend - Want One - as the album to try and get into his music . I much prefer it to the more avant grade Want Two - Poses and Release the Stars are very good too .

[Sir Velo]

I always expected those who enjoy classical music to be broadminded, respectful and not to be petty-minded snobs.

Why does expressing a dislike of this character's music make one a "petty minded snob". Do you extend this definition to all those rock and pop fans who write off all classical music without hearing a note of it?

Maybe the contempt with which it is held is from hearing enough of it to know it's of irredeemably poor quality. As a matter of interest, do you see broadmindedness reciprocated towards classical music by pop and rock worshippers? How many of those going to the RW gig will be (or have been) to the more "run of the mill", classical proms?

[Barbirollians]

Why does expressing a dislike of this character's music make one a "petty minded snob". Do you extend this definition to all those rock and pop fans who write off all classical music without hearing a note of it?

Maybe the contempt with which it is held is from hearing enough of it to know it's of irredeemably poor quality. As a matter of interest, do you see broadmindedness reciprocated towards classical music by pop and rock worshippers? How many of those going to the RW gig will be (or have been) to the more "run of the mill", classical proms?

I can understand entirely why someone might dislike RW but I struggle to hear how it could be regarded as of irredeemably poor quality ( unlike Lachenmann for example )