Prom 73 - 11.09.14: Mahler 3, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra & Choirs, Gilbert

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, Lucky the Live attendees, BUT...

From about 10 minutes in I thought... there's something seriously missing here.
In a word - characterisation. Where was the giant God Pan, menacing over the oboe singing in the meadow, the Trombone lording it over Pagan Rituals, the raucous MayDay parades? Where were THEY?
Can you really play this symphony as PURE MUSIC, a Symphony in D? I really don't think so. The 1st movement is supposed to feel like a primal, phenomenal force - Gilbert gave us a report from the event rather than the event itself... The start of the coda (after the Trombone's last lacklustre appearance) lacked all grip and purpose, the coda itself dreadfully dull.

Adding insult to emotional injury, the soundbalancers gave a huge level boost to the Meadow Flowers - a botanist's rather than a poets' eye - I had to reduce the volume on the quietest movement to tame the fierceness of the violins! (LOOK GUYS THIS IS 2014, AND THIS ISN'T FM). I nearly gave up at this point.

Perhaps I should have, as the Animals in the Woods never ventured near, scared off from the C Minor scherzo with - an all-too-human Rehearsal for Wind Figures. No tension before the rearing-up of the scherzo's climax and a plodding coda (remember the white horse in Ken Russell's Mahler? THAT'S what was missing in Gilbert's reading). The poor contralto in the NightSong was predictably too close, too loud... I was aware often of a lack of naturalness and Mahlerian idiom through each phrase, of a surprising degree of indiscipline in the entries... (what a contrast with Haitink's LSO Mahler 4!).

So the sublime final adagio - which I've often found almost impossible to get through, so much does it move me - went for almost nothing, with no real sense of flow, no hush or delicacy... but by this time, the poor sound had become really messy, with edgy, fierce and confused string textures, and a dynamic over-control which was crushingly obtrusive...

How strange is Radio 3, when in the same week we heard a concert from the Cleveland Orchestra (Brahms 2/Widmann Teufel Amor) which was a model of how a webcast/broadcast should sound. All the more frustrating that, aware as I am of the real difficulties live relays can present (RAH gets very dry when very full, etc.), there is nowhere to write to or enquire... It was a precious but alltoobrief moment when Rupert Brun (of BBC Audio) took part in online discussions during the first week of the 320kbps aac feed in September 2010.

Marks out of ten? You must be joking...

[mlb7171]

I have not yet heard the concert on i player, I was there in the hall though. It did sound amazing live, although I agree about the lack of characterisation in the 1st movement. What gets more and more noticeable every year is the multiplication of microphones. It's no wonder the engineers muck around - they seem to have so many options to choose from. 25 + years ago there used to be one stereo pair hanging somewhere over the conductor's head, and a back up pair, and a few mics on stage for woodwind. Not much else. At least as I recall. Does my memory have that totally wrong? One of the joys of modern releases of 'old' broadcasts from even the 70s and early 80s is you know that's how they sounded live, because no-one was mucking around with it all. None of this year's broadcasts will ever hold up as being truly representative of the concert... Pity.

[amac4165]

Overall very good in the hall - the first Movement was ok but underwhelming but it got better as it went and the final movement was brilliant IMHO.

It is a somewhat disjointed symphony - the choral elements seem to belong to another piece all together (which in part they do). Certainly not my favorite amongst Mahler symphonies.

[VodkaDilc]

Just back from an overnight stay (going from Mahler to Rufus made it a very long but satisfying night). Great performance of the Mahler - this really was a special orchestra (unlike some visiting European ones). Certainly no disappointments with the conductor substitution. I don't think I've heard the last movement played more impressively.

(And for those who were interested in the ratio of boy/girl in the CBSO Children's Choir in the War Requiem a few weeks ago, here it was much the same. Don't British or German boys sing any more?)

[Lento]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]Well the contours of the chorale in Brahms 1 Mvt 4 (string entry after a couple of seconds here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpuw...ature=youtu.be) and the opening massed horn opening to Mahler 3 are extremely similar.... And then imagine the Brahms string theme slowed right down and change a couple of notes, and you're in the last movement of Mahler 3... almost.

Plus I thought the "Flowers" had a whiff of "Brahms 4, 2nd mvt meets Brahms 2 3rd mvt".

[DublinJimbo]

It's good to hear such positive reaction to Alan Gilbert, who I feel has suffered some unjustifiably bad press.

I have a ticket (fiendishly expensive it was too) for his visit to Dublin in April with the New York Phil. Hopefully my reaction to that experience will be on a par with the positivity above.

[VodkaDilc]

It's good to hear such positive reaction to Alan Gilbert, who I feel has suffered some unjustifiably bad press.

The personal ovation he received after the Mahler was extremely enthusiastic. He conducted without a score too - is that practice less common than it was a few years ago?

[Lento]

[I]Well, Lucky the Live attendees, BUT...

From about 10 minutes in I thought... there's something seriously missing here.
In a word - characterisation. Where was the giant God Pan, menacing over the oboe singing in the meadow, the Trombone lording it over Pagan Rituals, the raucous MayDay parades? Where were THEY?....Can you really play this symphony as PURE MUSIC, a Symphony in D? I really don't think so

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=12252

[jayne lee wilson]

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_co...w.php?id=12252

Thankyou very much for that link, Lento, especially given that I admire and respect Gutman as much as any current reviewer... the way we heard it wasn't too far apart, but home listeners had to contend with rather more than mere emotional pallor and un-idiomatic playing...

I never get on with Gilbert though - I wasted money on his Da Capo Nielsen 2 and 3, and his Berlin DCH performances never did much for me either... as Furtwangler said of Toscanini (with slightly less justification) - "bloody timebeater!".

[pastoralguy]

Thankyou very much for that link, Lento, especially given that I admire and respect Gutman as much as any current reviewer... the way we heard it wasn't too far apart, but home listeners had to contend with rather more than mere emotional pallor and un-idiomatic playing...

I never get on with Gilbert though - I wasted money on his Da Capo Nielsen 2 and 3, and his Berlin DCH performances never did much for me either... as Furtwangler said of Toscanini (with slightly less justification) - "bloody timebeater!".

I've heard him twice in New York with the Philharmonic and, IMVHO, he's a safe pair of hands. Nothing to frighten the horses but certainly no Lenny either.

[LaurieWatt]

Well, Lucky the Live attendees, BUT...

From about 10 minutes in I thought... there's something seriously missing here.
In a word - characterisation. Where was the giant God Pan, menacing over the oboe singing in the meadow, the Trombone lording it over Pagan Rituals, the raucous MayDay parades? Where were THEY?
Can you really play this symphony as PURE MUSIC, a Symphony in D? I really don't think so. The 1st movement is supposed to feel like a primal, phenomenal force - Gilbert gave us a report from the event rather than the event itself... The start of the coda (after the Trombone's last lacklustre appearance) lacked all grip and purpose, the coda itself dreadfully dull.

Adding insult to emotional injury, the soundbalancers gave a huge level boost to the Meadow Flowers - a botanist's rather than a poets' eye - I had to reduce the volume on the quietest movement to tame the fierceness of the violins! (LOOK GUYS THIS IS 2014, AND THIS ISN'T FM). I nearly gave up at this point.

Perhaps I should have, as the Animals in the Woods never ventured near, scared off from the C Minor scherzo with - an all-too-human Rehearsal for Wind Figures. No tension before the rearing-up of the scherzo's climax and a plodding coda (remember the white horse in Ken Russell's Mahler? THAT'S what was missing in Gilbert's reading). The poor contralto in the NightSong was predictably too close, too loud... I was aware often of a lack of naturalness and Mahlerian idiom through each phrase, of a surprising degree of indiscipline in the entries... (what a contrast with Haitink's LSO Mahler 4!).

So the sublime final adagio - which I've often found almost impossible to get through, so much does it move me - went for almost nothing, with no real sense of flow, no hush or delicacy... but by this time, the poor sound had become really messy, with edgy, fierce and confused string textures, and a dynamic over-control which was crushingly obtrusive...

How strange is Radio 3, when in the same week we heard a concert from the Cleveland Orchestra (Brahms 2/Widmann Teufel Amor) which was a model of how a webcast/broadcast should sound. All the more frustrating that, aware as I am of the real difficulties live relays can present (RAH gets very dry when very full, etc.), there is nowhere to write to or enquire... It was a precious but alltoobrief moment when Rupert Brun (of BBC Audio) took part in online discussions during the first week of the 320kbps aac feed in September 2010.

Marks out of ten? You must be joking...

Must have been the same R3 person running this broadcast as looked after (or not!) the Berlin PO's first badly broadcast concert!

[amateur51]

I wonder what's happened to member Mahler's3rd

[richardfinegold]

I listened to parts on the iplayer after attending a Funeral. I heard the last movement which was magnificent .

[Simon B]

Must have been the same R3 person running this broadcast as looked after (or not!) the Berlin PO's first badly broadcast concert!

Having listened again via the website to bits of both M3 and the 1st BPO concert having attended, I concur. Both seem to have been captured poorly. Timps and percussion sound particularly wrong in BPO1 - recessed, boomy, attack missing or weirdly distorted. In general, everything at the back (t+perc, brass) is just wrong. Then there's strange highlighting of ww and strings, peculiar shifts in balance as time passes etc...

It may be something to do with layout on stage. The BPO percussion were on the opposite side to normal, the heavy brass centre stage and not raised up much. The Leipzig orch had the ww all in a block off to one side, horns almost down in the body of the orch - which didn't do much for audibility in the hall either.

My impression is that the mics are essentially in fixed positions that stay the same for every concert and adaptation to each event is done with the sliders. It's probably all done on a shoestring and in not much time these days.

[Tevot]

My impression is that the mics are essentially in fixed positions that stay the same for every concert and adaptation to each event is done with the sliders. It's probably all done on a shoestring and in not much time these days.

If this is true, it is very sad and depressing to note.

Have yet to hear both broadcasts, but will do certainly with great interest.

Best Wishes,

Tevot