Prom 62 - 3.09.14: Stuttgart RSO, Norrington

[mercia]

I'm sure that strict adherence to metronome marks is an excellent idea ........ and what should I do if there are none ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Why not just decide whether or not you like vibrato
- then go with performances to match ? Easy.

In fairness to Alpie, this rather oversimplifies the arguments he uses to support his paranoidly prejudiced obsession with RN. It is true (and something that RN didn't address in his broadcast comments) that if there are historical sources that condemn the practice of indiscriminate vibrato, then it is clear that this must have been a feature of at least some players' performance - and that, because, say, Joachim detested it, this doesn't mean that everyone else did also (although it does suggest that Brahms shared this opinion).

But Alpie also oversimplifies RN's stance - the key epithet is "indiscriminate" use of vibrato, as he made clear - and took pains to make clear - early in the discussion. There was plenty of vibrato last night in all three places, and lots of different types of vibrato, moreover. It just wasn't there all the time and all at the same intensity; instead, it was (or, more accurately "they were") used carefully at particular moments to give expressive "colours" when the conductor judged from the score that these were required. Interpretation based on study, in other words - the same principles encouraged in Furtwangler's Notebooks.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm sure that strict adherence to metronome marks is an excellent idea

Depends what you mean by "strict", mercs - but, if a composer writes them into a score, then a performer needs to take notice of them. If the metronome mark is dotted minim = 60 (that is, a bar of 3/4 every second) then it's not an excellent idea to play the work at MM = 50 (or, for that matter, = 70). The acoustic of the venue needs to be taken into account, but the basic metronome marking needs to be considered. Accounts of Beethoven's playing of his own piano works agree that he was flexible in his use of pulse, but (IIRC - I need Roehre's help on this) continuously returned to the initial speed. Whether this was a feature he expected of his orchestral and chamber works isn't (AFAIK) recorded - and how "flexible" (and whether each performance had different flexibilities - and whether Haydn or Schubert had the same expectations of their own Music) are matters to concern later performers of the work.

and what should I do if there are none ?

Read as many writings from the period in which the Music was written as you can find. The Tempo of minuets in Mozart and Haydn, for instance; these used to be performed at "a stately tempo", because ... well, I don't know why; presumably 19th Century conceptions of 18th Century courtly behaviour spread over into the 20th. But, reading Mozart's father's comments on "Allegro" and "allegretto" (the tempo headings of most Minuets), Mozart's letters commenting on how much faster the Austrians played Minuets than did the Italians, independent accounts of Mozart's playing (and the Tempo indications added to Mozart's works in editions by those who'd heard him), literature by the dance masters of the time (try dancing the steps of a Minuet at the speed Karajan or Beecham take them; Health & Safety would ban it!), even the Music Boxes from the time - all add up. Not "conclusive" proof, perhaps - but certainly putting the onus on those who prefer the slower speeds favoured in earlier recordings to "justify" their preferences.

A lot of work? Yes - that's the nature of performance practice, nowadays; and those who take such pains should be accorded respect for so doing, even if the results are not what we might prefer to hear.

[mercia]

RN's stance - the key epithet is "indiscriminate" use of vibrato, as he made clear - and took pains to make clear - early in the discussion.

I must have completely missed that in the discussion - where I picked up I thought he sounded quite black-and-white on the subject. No vibrato. Ever. (Then he said he was bored talking about it)

I shall listen again.

[Bryn]

I must have completely missed that in the discussion - where I picked up I thought he sounded quite black-and-white on the subject. No vibrato. Ever. (Then he said he was bored talking about it)

I shall listen again.

RN tends not to refer to the "indiscriminate" use of vibrato, but "permanent" vibrato, i.e. vibrato as the string players' fallback mode of tone production and projection. If there are those who cannot hear the sensitive use of vibrato in Stuttgarter/RN performances, they can watch and see its application.

I was only able to catch the first movement and part of the second of the Beethoven in the car during the drive back home from work yesterday. I am about to 'Listen Again' a find to what extent I concur with the negative comments re. the first and last movements of the Beethoven. Very much enjoyed the Dvorak, as expected.

Oh, and to Stravinsky's and Schoenberg's dislike of ubiquitous vibrato, you can add that of Cage and Feldman. I think it was via the former's String Quartet inf Four Parts that I first encountered the delights of what RN like to refer to as "pure tone" in a string quartet. So clean and unmuddied was it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

RN tends not to refer to the "indiscriminate" use of vibrato, but "permanent" vibrato, i.e. vibrato as the string players' fallback mode of tone production and projection.

- when I typed "indiscriminate" I had a nagging feeling that I wasn't using RN's vocabulary.

[Lento]

A nagging doubt about Beethoven's metronome markings. Did he have sufficient hearing still to have an accurate perception of them?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A nagging doubt about Beethoven's metronome markings. Did he have sufficient hearing still to have an accurate perception of them?

Well, they're visual aids as much as aural ones (many Musicians prefer the ones you can silence, to avoid the "click track" effect). And Maelzel (the inventor of the metronome as we know it, and of the "barrel organ" for which Beethoven wrote the Battle Symphony") regularly consulted the composer to seek asuggestions as to how the device might be improved.

[Lento]

Well, they're visual aids as much as aural ones (many Musicians prefer the ones you can silence, to avoid the "click track" effect). And Maelzel (the inventor of the metronome as we know it, and of the "barrel organ" for which Beethoven wrote the Battle Symphony") regularly consulted the composer to seek asuggestions as to how the device might be improved.

Doh: sorry, of course he could see it: my senior moment: no batteries in his time!

[vinteuil]

Doh: sorry, of course he could see it: my senior moment: no batteries in his time!

... o yes there were -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyden_jar

[Nick Armstrong]

[Lento]

[jayne lee wilson]

This thread wins the 2014 Most Tangential to An Actual performance award... 57 posts and what, about three have actually heard the metronome-controversial Beethoven 8th itself...? But then, me da capo, I'm always more interested in what performers do than what composers tell them to do...

Busy day, low blood sugar... better eat something...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But then, me da capo, I'm always more interested in what performers do than what composers tell them to do...

Moi aussi.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This thread wins the 2014 Most Tangential to An Actual performance award... 57 posts and what, about three have actually heard the metronome-controversial Beethoven 8th itself...?

Yes - there was even one post that just discussed the giggling between the Movements of the Beethoven

FWiW - I thought the Dvorak was a lovely performance, with the balance between symphonic drama and lyricism perfectly judged. A performance that reminded me what a splendid work this is when the conductor approaches what the composer wrote with insight and imagination - and how determinedly un-triumphant the conclusion is; in this performance, not that far from the mood at the end of Brahms' Fourth Symphony (in the same key). I'm less keen on Norrington's way with Beethoven and Berlioz, but this is just personal preference - nothing that Norrington and the orchestra did with the Music didn't arise from what is written in the scores.