Prom 56 - 28.08.14: LPO, Toradze / Jurowski

[Nick Armstrong]

Apologies for veering back towards the thread topic ...

....this "Planets" seemed to me just an unmusical bash-through, almost as bad in its way as Markus Stenz conducting "Heldenleben" earlier in the season. I felt sorry for the magnificent players of the LPO - given little time to breathe even in the cool & sensual atmosphere of "Venus" ( ramrod-stiff Sir Adrian found more eroticism ! ) & audibly spooked by Jurowski's maniacal start to "Jupiter".

Most interesting, this.

Bloke in the Grauniad had other views...

"The Planets is a hard act to follow when done so well. This was Jurowski at his best, exciting yet thoughtful, and making this most familiar of scores sound marvellously fresh. A poised, multitextured Venus after the pulverising onslaught of Mars suggested the complexities of peace after the simplicities of war. The jubilation of Jupiter, hair-raising in its Dionysian elan, contrasted wonderfully with the controlled anguish of Saturn. The final fade to silence at the end of Neptune was breathtaking"

... so I'm looking forward to making time this weekend to hear the performance, and see what I think!

[Ferretfancy]

My usual and preferred area of seating (in the expensive seats, FF!) is in the side stalls and I've frequently been present when inter-movement applause breaks out and it always seems to break out, as far as I can tell, towards the back of the hall and certainly never where I am sitting. I've occasionally been in the Circle and Grand Tier too but again applause never breaks out where I am.

I too find it completely baffling and I've usually put it down to 'Hello Mum' exhibitionists at the back of the Arena but a swift eye-check shows no such evidence, Must admit that I've even wondered if it is coming from the PA system.

Had I been Jurowski last night I would have addressed the audience. If it irritates the performers on stage then one of them needs to make those feelings known. If this happens a few times then the practise of inter-movement applause at the Proms will die out. Sad to say that what was once the best audience in the world has now become one of the worst.

Petrushka

You confirm my own experience hearing the applause starting at the rear of the hall.That's the way it sounds from my usual listening position in the Arena, sometimes spreading to the stalls. There are, of course, people in the Promenade who may be attending their first Prom, and will applaud, but the great majority of regular attenders do not. I hate unwanted applause, even though I do admit than Bryn has a point where a suite like the Planets is concerned, since isolated movements from it were played at Proms in the past.
However most compositions are designed to carry ideas and performing tension from one movement to the next, and applause breaks the listener's concentration. I'm quite sure that Schoenberg would not have expected his music to be interrupted in that way.

[Lento]

I'm quite sure that Schoenberg would not have expected his music to be interrupted in that way.

Made the proceedings sound like a school concert.

[PJPJ]

On-air I couldn't hear the organ at the end of "Uranus"

Was the organ used at all?

[Maclintick]

Was the organ used at all?

Yes - the deep pedal C at the end of Saturn was clearly audible, but Holst's musical-onomatopoeic pyrotechnic, the ffff glissando at the climactic moment in Uranus, after which the magician vanishes in a puff of smoke, probably with charred underclothes if the person at the console of the Albert Hall monster is doing his or her job, was a bit of a damp squib - on the radio, at least. Did it register in the hall, I wonder ?

[Petrushka]

Yes - the deep pedal C at the end of Saturn was clearly audible, but Holst's musical-onomatopoeic pyrotechnic, the ffff glissando at the climactic moment in Uranus, after which the magician vanishes in a puff of smoke, probably with charred underclothes if the person at the console of the Albert Hall monster is doing his or her job, was a bit of a damp squib - on the radio, at least. Did it register in the hall, I wonder ?

Isn't there some difference of opinion as to how this effect is produced? I think one theory is that it should be played with the arms laid flat on the keyboard rather than as a true glissando ie playing each note very rapidly. My guess is that the second approach was used last night hence 'damp squib'. The first approach produces the 'charred underclothes'.

Perhaps an organist might like to comment.

[Dave2002]

Yes - the deep pedal C at the end of Saturn was clearly audible, but Holst's musical-onomatopoeic pyrotechnic, the ffff glissando at the climactic moment in Uranus, after which the magician vanishes in a puff of smoke, probably with charred underclothes if the person at the console of the Albert Hall monster is doing his or her job, was a bit of a damp squib - on the radio, at least. Did it register in the hall, I wonder ?

As I wrote earlier, I was unaware of the part for organ in the Planets until one of my LP recordings showed off that ffff glissando in Uranus. The organ was much more in evidence in several of the movements in the hall, but the particular effect was feeble - and I was listening out for it. I don't know why, but you suggested it was a damp squib on the radio - it was in the hall, also.

[Nick Armstrong]

As I wrote earlier, I was unaware of the part for organ in the Planets until one of my LP recordings showed off that ffff glissando in Uranus. The organ was much more in evidence in several of the movements in the hall, but the particular effect was feeble - and I was listening out for it. I don't know why, but you suggested it was a damp squib on the radio - it was in the hall, also.

Ditto, Dave - I had no idea from various recordings, till I heard it in the RFH and loved the effect. Disappointing that old Father Willis was not allowed to let rip... What better time or place could there be?!

Can you remember which recording did the business?

[jayne lee wilson]

I suspect Dave2002's thinking of Karajan's 1981 Berlin version Cal - I remember the shock it gave me in a scarce & prized LP purchase, and the, well, varied responses it received from reviewers at the time...!

[Petrushka]

I'm rather surprised that some are unaware of the use of the organ in the Planets. As well as that famous moment in Uranus it is used in Mars, most notably at the great crunching ffff climax near the very end and the organ pedal is used in Saturn and Neptune.

Karajan was well up on use of the organ by virtue of the fact that his brother, Wolfgang, was a famous organist and his 1960 VPO recording isn't bad either. It's a poor reflection on some well-known recordings that the organ doesn't make much of an impact.

[Ferretfancy]

I'm rather surprised that some are unaware of the use of the organ in the Planets. As well as that famous moment in Uranus it is used in Mars, most notably at the great crunching ffff climax near the very end and the organ pedal is used in Saturn and Neptune.

Karajan was well up on use of the organ by virtue of the fact that his brother, Wolfgang, was a famous organist and his 1960 VPO recording isn't bad either. It's a poor reflection on some well-known recordings that the organ doesn't make much of an impact.

The organ was only just audible in Neptune as well in the hall, and I thought the singing ladies walking backwards down Kensington Gore were a bit too loud, but I still enjoyed the performance.

[Petrushka]

The organ was only just audible in Neptune as well in the hall

It is, though, marked ppp which suggests that 'only just audible' is about right. Would like to see some expert comment regarding the glissando effect in Uranus as mentioned above. I always thought that the usual method was to slam both forearms flat on the keyboard for this ffff moment but there is some difference of opinion as to exactly what Holst wanted here.

[Roslynmuse]

It is, though, marked ppp which suggests that 'only just audible' is about right. Would like to see some expert comment regarding the glissando effect in Uranus as mentioned above. I always thought that the usual method was to slam both forearms flat on the keyboard for this ffff moment but there is some difference of opinion as to exactly what Holst wanted here.

Not 'expert comment' by any means, but the organ part has a clearly marked 'gliss' and the bottom and top octaves notated as scales, as in the full score. I'm quite sure that Holst would have found some way of notating this as a forearm cluster had he so wished it. (By way of comparison, in the Toccata for solo piano, there is a glissando notated in a similar way, complete with a footnote about the precise moment when it should start.) Does anyone have access to the Faber facsimile manuscript of Planets published some years ago? I have other volumes in that series but not that one. (Just checked and discovered that not all of the manuscript is in Holst's handwriting, as he was under a lot of time pressure and also suffering from neuritis - so even this may not provide the final answer you're looking for.)

[Simon B]

It is, though, marked ppp which suggests that 'only just audible' is about right. Would like to see some expert comment regarding the glissando effect in Uranus as mentioned above. I always thought that the usual method was to slam both forearms flat on the keyboard for this ffff moment but there is some difference of opinion as to exactly what Holst wanted here.

Petrushka - I remember this came up before somewhere. This is what's on the score - seems pretty unambiguous:

http://pchnote.appspot.com/image?sid=IMSLP15438&page=28&l=0.59763&t=0.69151&r=0.94092&b=0.79194&w=552

On the whole, my (entirely personal, usual disclaimers apply) feeling from the stalls was that the organ part was way too subtle at almost every point in The Planets. It's never possible to know whether this sort of thing is down to the player or the conductor. I suspect (usual disclaimers apply - again) far too much influence is generally ascribed to conductors over timpani and percussion in this respect. Usually you get what you usually get from particular players regardless of the person doing the semaphore except perhaps at particular moments. Maybe this is true of organists too? Full blast was delivered for a few seconds at the end of the Scriabin - and it was striking just how enormous the sound was compared with any moment in the Holst.

That said, Jurowski is a pretty severe chap a lot of the time - too much sugar isn't on the menu. This often pays dividends and his approach to The Planets seemed to work much better in the tight acoustic of the RFH. There was some thrilling playing on Thu (particularly from Messrs Carrington and Cornes on timps in Uranus) but it was all just too severe and hard driven for me overall. No grand mystery and awe...

[Petrushka]

Petrushka - I remember this came up before somewhere. This is what's on the score - seems pretty unambiguous:

http://pchnote.appspot.com/image?sid=IMSLP15438&page=28&l=0.59763&t=0.69151&r=0.94092&b=0.79194&w=552

On the whole, my (entirely personal, usual disclaimers apply) feeling from the stalls was that the organ part was way too subtle at almost every point in The Planets. It's never possible to know whether this sort of thing is down to the player or the conductor. I suspect (usual disclaimers apply - again) far too much influence is generally ascribed to conductors over timpani and percussion in this respect. Usually you get what you usually get from particular players regardless of the person doing the semaphore except perhaps at particular moments. Maybe this is true of organists too? Full blast was delivered for a few seconds at the end of the Scriabin - and it was striking just how enormous the sound was compared with any moment in the Holst.

That said, Jurowski is a pretty severe chap a lot of the time - too much sugar isn't on the menu. This often pays dividends and his approach to The Planets seemed to work much better in the tight acoustic of the RFH. There was some thrilling playing on Thu (particularly from Messrs Carrington and Cornes on timps in Uranus) but it was all just too severe and hard driven for me overall. No grand mystery and awe...

I have the Boosey & Hawkes pocket score of the Planets and it is striking how carefully Holst notes down exactly what he wants in terms of instrumental detail, hard/felt sticks and the like but I do remember some controversy about the organ glissando in Uranus, perhaps in the pages of Gramophone. I'm not a musician so have no idea of how a forearm cluster would be notated but it's difficult to see how a rapid glissando can make itself heard even at ffff and this may be why some organists/conductors have taken it upon themselves to go for the forearm cluster.