Prom 56 - 28.08.14: LPO, Toradze / Jurowski

[Petrushka]

My usual and preferred area of seating (in the expensive seats, FF!) is in the side stalls and I've frequently been present when inter-movement applause breaks out and it always seems to break out, as far as I can tell, towards the back of the hall and certainly never where I am sitting. I've occasionally been in the Circle and Grand Tier too but again applause never breaks out where I am.

I too find it completely baffling and I've usually put it down to 'Hello Mum' exhibitionists at the back of the Arena but a swift eye-check shows no such evidence, Must admit that I've even wondered if it is coming from the PA system.

Had I been Jurowski last night I would have addressed the audience. If it irritates the performers on stage then one of them needs to make those feelings known. If this happens a few times then the practise of inter-movement applause at the Proms will die out. Sad to say that what was once the best audience in the world has now become one of the worst.

[gradus]

Applause after every movement reflects a current fad of describing all music as 'songs' ie pieces that are complete in themselves with no notion that they form part of a greater whole, may this in part account for the applause after everything?
In our local John Lewis at the weekend the chap demo-ing the latest speaker - a £250 object that fits into a 3 apertured silicon sock and sounded execrable - referred to everything that I asked to hear as a song despite none of the requested pieces being songs. Spotify also calls everything a song.

[pureimagination]

At least when I hear clapping between movements I can't hear the coughing! Perhaps we should get back to the old habit, or so I believe, of hearty eating and drinking, exclamations of praise or disgust and wandering about mid performance. Doesn't 'Proms' originate from 'promenade'?
Seriously though, I think it's time to scrap the in the programme notes (that the majority of the audience probably don't buy) regarding stifling coughing etc and the taped in the hall announcement (by Katie Derham) regarding switching off phones etc. This could be replaced with (and let me be the first to offer my services to the RAH/Proms) with a live announcer on the stage stating that silence should be observed between movements (by the audience, those on stage can do what they like), that coughing should be stifled at any time and is not a pre-requisite between movements. The announcement should also include a little bit of information about what the audience is about to hear; title of piece, number of movements etc.
This would settle and inform the audience of what I feel is the general consensus of what is expected of them to make their experience more enjoyable and engaging. Yes I know that those who attend many live proms would get cheesed off with it but I would think it preferable to having your enjoyment spoiled by the distractions of inappropriate applause or clapping etc.

Yes, I too would have much preferred a longer (less hurried) and more dynamic The Planets. I suppose this opinion balances with comments I saw regarding Dudamel's (rather marvellous, in my opinion) conducting of Mahler's 2nd at the proms a couple of years ago - that he'd stretched it out too much.

[Bryn]

At least when I hear clapping between movements I can't hear the coughing! Perhaps we should get back to the old habit, or so I believe, of hearty eating and drinking, exclamations of praise or disgust and wandering about mid performance. Doesn't 'Proms' originate from 'promenade'?
Seriously though, ...

Ah so your pureimagination does not stretch to thinking that other paying members of the audience have every right to relax, clear their throats, show approbation etc., during the hiatus between separate movements. It's your dedicated following of fairly recent fashion which must prevail. And why should the hired hands on stage be left out of your diktat?

Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

[Petrushka]

The Prommers in the Arena perform a nightly ritual of requesting donations to musical charities and before doing so, manage to hush the rest of the audience perfectly. Why, then, don't the Prommers themselves take matters into their own hands and request that out of consideration for their neighbours and performers coughing be stifled and applause between movements is not required?

[Petrushka]

Ah so your pureimagination does not stretch to thinking that other paying members of the audience have every right to relax, clear their throats, show approbation etc., during the hiatus between separate movements. It's your dedicated following of fairly recent fashion which must prevail. And why should the hired hands on stage be left out of your diktat?

Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

People have every right to do lots of things but in a public arena the watchword should be consideration for your fellow audience members and the performers on stage. Sadly, it seems to be a commodity in short supply these days.

[Bryn]

People have every right to do lots of things but in a public arena the watchword should be consideration for your fellow audience members and the performers on stage. Sadly, it seems to be a commodity in short supply these days.

That, as first sight, seems fair enough, but it appears that the consideration is taken to be a one way street, with the traffic flowing against consideration for those who feel impelled to applaud during the hiatus between separate movements.

There are instances where such applause is indeed inappropriate, as, for instance, during the one minute silence called for between the movements of Messiaen's Et Exspecto Resurrectionem Mortuorum. Trouble is, when did you last hear those silences observed by the performers, let alone the audience?

[Come to think of it, I think the last time I heard such a performance was indeed during a Prom in the '80s. I was not in attendance but was listening via a ghetto blaster placed atop a triangulation point in south Devon. One could clearly hear a cloud burst beating down on the roof of the RAH during one of the movements, and throughout the following minute's 'silence'. Messiaen would have loved it.]

[pureimagination]

In answer to post 34.
Clear their throats? Why, are the audience about to perform? Sitting quietly in my view means my appreciation and the appreciation of others is not diminished by unnecessary distractions. The performance hasn't stopped just because the musicians aren't making a sound - the silence around and between many pieces is often a vital part. Yes I know it's all about the context and some proms have an a greater element of audience participation.
You know darn well that noises on stage are kept to a minimum between movements. Retuning by the orchestra may be necessary to give a more complete performance - goodness knows many here are quick to point out flat notes etc.
Next time you're at a prom I suggest you leave your phone on, take a bag of crisps or sweets in wrappers with you and have a chat to your neighbour during the 1st and 2nd movement of whatever it is being performed. I bet it won't be you receiving the rapturous applause.

[Bryn]

Hmm, I recall a BBC Radio 3 Invitation Concert I attended at Maida Vale some years ago. I forget which particular newish Russian composition was being performed, but it involved a part for a chamber organ. The organist has failed to switch off the mobile phone they had on their person, with embarrassing results during a quiet section. This gave rise to a few wry smiles, but being an attentive audience, none of us seemed to find it too distracting from our concentration on the intended sounds of the musical performance. Chit-chatting between movements is also quite a common occurrence in orchestras, in my experience. How often it is about the music, and how often about whether they'll get to the Queen's Head quick enough at the end, I cannot be sure of.

As I have mentioned more than once in recent contributions here, I have missed a number of Proms this year due to a persistent cough. 'Nuff said re. the consideration I care to show for fellow audience members, and indeed for the hired hands on stage.

[vinteuil]

... applause between movements is not required...

oh, I think applause between movements is - if not required - at least very much to be welcomed!


God, the Proms and all that goes with 'em is such a bore....




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[pureimagination]

[QUOTE=Bryn;425122]Hmm, I recall a BBC Radio 3 Invitation Concert I attended at Maida Vale some years ago. I forget which particular newish Russian composition was being performed, but it involved a part for a chamber organ. The organist has failed to switch off the mobile phone they had on their person, with embarrassing results during a quiet section. This gave rise to a few wry smiles, but being an attentive audience, none of us seemed to find it too distracting from our concentration on the intended sounds of the musical performance. Chit-chatting between movements is also quite a common occurrence in orchestras, in my experience. How often it is about the music, and how often about whether they'll get to the Queen's Head quick enough at the end, I cannot be sure of.]

Bryn, we can all quote examples like yours. But it's not how it seems now at almost every prom. "Chit-chatting between movements is also quite a common occurrence in orchestras." Yes but not so the whole hall can hear.

To vinteuil, I take it you don't attend?

[vinteuil]

To vinteuil, I take it you don't attend?

... o, I have attended. Good Lord, I have attended....

[pureimagination]

... o, I have attended. Good Lord, I have attended....

Then the point you are making is...?

[Serial_Apologist]

Doesn't 'Proms' originate from 'promenade'?

No more than lemons originate from lemonade! Otherwise - seriously - I am for a change in general agreement with the rest of what you say here, bar the coughing ban, which seems a bit much iimss; while no Christian, I would always observe protocols when attending a church or chapel wedding or funeral (the only times I am likely these days to be in church, apart from historical visits etc), and not give in to any impulse to even murmer "rubbish" sotto voce, in order not to upset worshippers whose protocols aren't (afaik) doing me any harm.

[Maclintick]

What a disappointing Planets! Taken way too quickly, and the audience felt it necessary to applaud between EVERY movement.

Apologies for veering back towards the thread topic & not continuing the general disapprobation of board members towards "uneducated/inconsiderate" inter-movement applauders, but this"Planets" seemed to me just an unmusical bash-through, almost as bad in its way as Markus Stenz conducting "Heldenleben" earlier in the season. I felt sorry for the magnificent players of the LPO - given little time to breathe even in the cool & sensual atmosphere of "Venus" ( ramrod-stiff Sir Adrian found more eroticism ! ) & audibly spooked by Jurowski's maniacal start to "Jupiter".

On-air I couldn't hear the organ at the end of "Uranus", & "Farben" was much too loud, though I admired Jurowski & the LPO's commitment in the faster movements of the Schoenberg.