Prom 31 - 9.08/14: Hallé, Coote / Elder

[pureimagination]

Alice Coote has a very interesting voice, remarkable in its way. Not sure I really like it, though.

I thought she did all that can be done with Sea Pictures, a piece I find dull and uninspiring. After a while I found my attention was drifting in spite of her singing.

I enjoyed the Berlioz and the Beethoven, and thought it outrageous that the Helen Grime piece was omitted from the television broadcast, presumably in case it scared off the audience.

I'm quite happy to disagree with you especially re Alice Coote's voice. I love her diction and for me (personally, in my opinion) it has been one of the highlights of this years Proms. Music is after all a very subjective thing and I respect others opinions. On the subject of new pieces being omitted from broadcast I'm not so bothered. The majority of new pieces often spoil the flow of a concert, have little or no connection to the pieces being performed either side and most new pieces are not likely to become regularly part of the Proms repertoire (yes I know someone will point out those exceptions to the rule) but I'm just adding my opinion to the discussion. I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm quite happy to disagree with you especially re Alice Coote's voice. I love her diction and for me (personally, in my opinion) it has been one of the highlights of this years Proms. Music is after all a very subjective thing and I respect others opinions. On the subject of new pieces being omitted from broadcast I'm not so bothered. The majority of new pieces often spoil the flow of a concert, have little or no connection to the pieces being performed either side and most new pieces are not likely to become regularly part of the Proms repertoire (yes I know someone will point out those exceptions to the rule) but I'm just adding my opinion to the discussion. I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

No doubt they thought the same thing when Debussy's first pieces started getting performances. Or Glinka's. Or.... anybody's.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The majority of new pieces often spoil the flow of a concert, have little or no connection to the pieces being performed either side

But that's true of most of the old pieces, too!

I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

[Hornspieler]

..... I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

I might like free-fall parachute jumping, but I have no intention of trying it.

My loss, I'm sure.

HS

[pureimagination]

Quote Originally Posted by pureimagination
..... I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

I've just watched/listened to the Helen Grime piece Near Midnight. Sorry to say it but it did nothing for me in the sense that I would seek it out again. Another exercise in sound rather than music. Every instrument in the orchestra gets a go - no solo's, repeated refrain or melody just chop and change.

I've aired my views about the inclusion of new pieces at the proms in other posts and believe me I'm trying to look for positives. Perhaps because I was scarred for life by witnessing a performance of Xenakis's Pléïades at a prom in 2008 sandwiched between RVW Antarctica Symphony and Holst The Planets!! I have extremely broad musical tastes but it seems I just don't have the ears for many new classical pieces, though I did enjoy Qigang Chen - Joie Eternelle at one of the early proms.

[Bryn]

Quote Originally Posted by pureimagination
..... I have downloaded the Grimes piece to listen to - you never know I might like it!

I've just watched/listened to the Helen Grime piece Near Midnight. Sorry to say it but it did nothing for me in the sense that I would seek it out again. Another exercise in sound rather than music. Every instrument in the orchestra gets a go - no solo's, repeated refrain or melody just chop and change.

I've aired my views about the inclusion of new pieces at the proms in other posts and believe me I'm trying to look for positives. Perhaps because I was scarred for life by witnessing a performance of Xenakis's Pléïades at a prom in 2008 sandwiched between RVW Antarctica Symphony and Holst The Planets!! ...

Well yes, that damned wind machine in the RVW and the women's chorus in the Holst were quite out of place.

[pureimagination]

Well yes, that damned wind machine in the RVW and the women's chorus in the Holst were quite out of place.

But the point is that in the examples you've just given they're not out of place - could they be performed without them? probably but why would you leave them out if the composer/orchestrator included them. My argument is about proms/concerts/recordings where the inclusion of a certain piece of music (and in my opinion this occurs with a lot of the new or commissioned music at the proms) jars with the pieces that accompany it. It's the equivalent of this new habit of coughing between movements that's become worse than the between movement clapping. The orchestra don't feel the need to cough between movements so why do so many of the audience - what's wrong with silence. All I'm saying is that the Xenakis between RVW and Holst was like the unstifled coughing that now occurs where instead silence should prevail. I hope you understand my analogy.

[makropulos]

All I'm saying is that the Xenakis between RVW and Holst was like the unstifled coughing that now occurs where instead silence should prevail. I hope you understand my analogy.

Pleiades like coughing? I may have misunderstood... But Xenakis's Pleiades is a piece that bowls me over (and dazzles me) every time I hear it, especially in a live performance - and I thought that juxtaposition between VW and Holst worked very well.

[Bryn]

But the point is that in the examples you've just given they're not out of place - could they be performed without them? probably but why would you leave them out if the composer/orchestrator included them. My argument is about proms/concerts/recordings where the inclusion of a certain piece of music (and in my opinion this occurs with a lot of the new or commissioned music at the proms) jars with the pieces that accompany it. It's the equivalent of this new habit of coughing between movements that's become worse than the between movement clapping. The orchestra don't feel the need to cough between movements so why do so many of the audience - what's wrong with silence. All I'm saying is that the Xenakis between RVW and Holst was like the unstifled coughing that now occurs where instead silence should prevail. I hope you understand my analogy.

No, I think the analogy quote bogus. I have also quite often encountered coughing by performers, both between movements and during performance. They do what they can to stifle it, but it happens. At a performance of Feldman's For Philip Guston I attended a couple of years ago, the flutist was riven with a severe cough throughout the nearly 5 hours of the performance. The performance was magical, was recorded, and has since been issued as a 4 CD set (the supervising engineer having skilfully edited out the coughs using previously recorded rehearsal takes.

Some musicians even have the temerity to re-tune between movements, thus thoroughly disrupting the flow, but what can you do? Ah, I know, concentrate on the music, rather than the incidental/accidental sounds.

By the way, I too attended that Xenakis sandwich Prom In Memoriam 'Tod' Handley. Thought the three works made a very effective programme, especially the celestial link between the Xenakis and Holst works.

[Sir Velo]

Pleiades like coughing? I may have misunderstood... But Xenakis's Pleiades is a piece that bowls me over (and dazzles me) every time I hear it, especially in a live performance - and I thought that juxtaposition between VW and Holst worked very well.

The Pleiades is a great piece, and one of Xenakis' most accessible. Having said that, I would have liked to have heard it coupled with, for example, Varese's Arcana and Ligeti's Apparitions.

[pureimagination]

The Pleiades is a great piece, and one of Xenakis' most accessible. Having said that, I would have liked to have heard it coupled with, for example, Varese's Arcana and Ligeti's Apparitions.

Different musical tastes that's all I'm saying. I respect that you like it please respect that i don't.

[ardcarp]

Another exercise in sound rather than music.

Ho ho. We're into philosophy here.

I wonder if anyone would like to take a punt at naming the most recent substantial work for orchestra which made an impression at first hearing and is still in the repertoire..i.e. played quite often, including at the Proms?

[pureimagination]

Ho ho. We're into philosophy here.

I wonder if anyone would like to take a punt at naming the most recent substantial work for orchestra which made an impression at first hearing and is still in the repertoire..i.e. played quite often, including at the Proms?

Holst The Planets?

[Bryn]

The Pleiades is a great piece, and one of Xenakis' most accessible. Having said that, I would have liked to have heard it coupled with, for example, Varese's Arcana and Ligeti's Apparitions.

Do remember the concert was "In Memoriam Vernon Handley". I'm currently editing the AIFs I had the Alesis Masterlink record from FM at the time. Good job it had plenty of room on its hard drive at the time. The Masterlink has no timer option, so I had to start the recording before setting out for the Prom. It was SMP, who was presenting that night, who referred to the link between the works as "celestial". Works for the Xenakis and Holst, but not really for the RVW.

Oh, and there were in fact 2 intervals, so not only applause and coughing, but imbibing of alcohol and eating of ice cream, major re-staging, etc. between the performances.

[pureimagination]

Do remember the concert was "In Memoriam Vernon Handley". I'm currently editing the AIFs I had the Alesis Masterlink record from FM at the time. Good job it had plenty of room on its hard drive at the time. The Masterlink has no timer option, so I had to start the recording before setting out for the Prom. It was SMP, who was presenting that night, who referred to the link between the works as "celestial". Works for the Xenakis and Holst, but not really for the RVW.

Oh, and there were in fact 2 intervals, so not only applause and coughing, but imbibing of alcohol and eating of ice cream, major re-staging, etc. between the performances.

The celestial link is purely in the link because of the titles of the pieces. If someone heard them both together for the first time without knowing the titles would they make the link.

With regards to the distractions, ambience, behaviour of the audience etc I go to a live concert to hear the music being played/sung by the orchestra/choir/singer etc not to hear the audience. With a live performance you get to hear and feel it at that moment and someone coughing for example a nano second into a quiet emotional piece of music or indeed silence means that that moment is gone because you've been temporarily distracted and you can't get it back. Yes I maybe over sensitive but some music does that to me.