Prom 31 - 9.08/14: Hallé, Coote / Elder

[Hornspieler]

I'm a big risk taker then...having done it in May with the standard 3...though admittedly not in the AH or on radio or TV!!!! For a chamber orchestra with 2 resident horns, having to hire one extra rather than two is kind to the pocket.

Going back to your 'conductor's point of view' Pabs, the thing which scares most of us is the typical Mozart (piano, violin, etc) concerto, lightly scored for wind but with two high and prominent horn parts. Admittedly shorter than Eroica, but with great potential for cocking the whole thing up.

But the addition of another players(s) would only increase the danger of a cock-up tenfold.

HS

[Stan Drews]

"If you watch such prestigious orchestras as the Berlin PO or the Vienna PO, even when playing Bruckner's and Mahler's heaviest works, you will only see the number of horns on the platform that are specified in the composer's score."

Not quite so, HS: I sat in the first row of the organ gallery behind the Wiener horns at an Edinburgh Festival concert around 1976 (Mahler 4 - Abbado). Not only did the sainted Roland Berger have a bumper, but he put aside his Vienna horn in favour of a Paxman alto at one point.

[Mary Chambers]

Alice Coote has a very interesting voice, remarkable in its way. Not sure I really like it, though.

I thought she did all that can be done with Sea Pictures, a piece I find dull and uninspiring. After a while I found my attention was drifting in spite of her singing.

I enjoyed the Berlioz and the Beethoven, and thought it outrageous that the Helen Grime piece was omitted from the television broadcast, presumably in case it scared off the audience.

[Opsimath]

It is the common practice in British orchestras for the principal horn to demand a "bumper up" to play the less important bits and rest his poor tired lips.* Rather ludicrous on this occasion, because in two of the three passages where all three scheduled horns have a big unison passage which might benefit from being reinforced by a fourth player, the bumper sat with his horn on his knees admiring the other three who were blowing for all that they were worth.

Throughout his career, Dennis Brain never had an "Assistant 1st horn" Nor did his father, Aubrey.

Recording sessions are very expensive. You won't see anyone engaged to "bump up" the principal horn. The management's attitude would be " ... if you can't manage it without help, we'll get someone else."

If you watch such prestigious orchestras as the Berlin PO or the Vienna PO, even when playing Bruckner's and Mahler's heaviest works, you will only see the number of horns on the platform that are specified in the composer's score.

My attitude has always been that I was prepared to take the blame for my own split notes but not for those of the player sitting alongside me.

Even in Brahms' orchestral works, where he scored most of the higher and more difficult solos for the 3rd horn, you will still see the bumper, like a faithful manservant, sitting alongside his master - the Principal Horn.**

** The BBC Symphony Orchestra , to whom spending our money is no object, go even one better - they have two principal players on contract for all sections; so they only have to turn up for half the performances, while the poor Rank and File string players have to play the lot for considerably less money.

Well, you did ask, gradus.

HS

(Overheard in the canteen at Maida Vale Studios)

"Who's leading the orchestra this week?"

"I'm not sure. Which day did you have in mind?"

I don't think it is so much that principal horns demand a bumper but rather that the normal complement of British symphony orchestras is five horns (in much the same way that the piccolo and cor anglais are contracted players).

Far from ludicrous that the fourth player in Eroica wasn't reinforcing the tutti, as Tony explained the primary reason he was there was to cover the parts the first horn didn't play. While how a bumper is used varies from principal to principal, the main purpose isn't to add an extra voice that the composer didn't want.

As has been mentioned, it is not unheard of for the Vienna Phil to employ a bumper but even when they or the Berlin don't it is hardly comparing like for like with British orchestras. The VP and BP employ more than one principal horn (and usually enough players for at least two complete sections) so each will often only play half a concert. This makes a big difference as far as stamina is concerned, particularly when allied to the rehearsals they don't have to do.

You mention the works of Brahms. While the 3rd horn has plenty to do, the first generally has more exposed, extensive solos (and in the symphonies the 3rd often has a tacet movement as well) so can't really be begrudged a bumper. As I am sure you are aware, the life of a principal horn can be precarious. While in days past a bumper may have been unusual it is now standard which is just as well given the workload of the modern British symphony orchestra. The fifth horn not only helps the principal but is also available to cover other parts as necessary. As the bumper is a contracted player, it makes sense to use him or her even for something like the Dvorak. It doesn't mean principals can't manage without one; rather that it is more comfortable with one.

[ardcarp]

So far I haven't even mentioned the dodgy intonation of the lower strings, particularly in the slow movement of the Symphony.

Do you mean in the Eroica, HS? I did notice a few slightly uncomfortable moments in the cellos. I think this may have arisen from Mark Elder's wish to minimise vibrato. I was impressed, however, with the whispering and very pure-sounding pianissimos he achieved at times in the slow movement.

[gradus]

HS, many thanks for the explanation and to everyone for the subsequent comments. I had no idea that the practice of 'bumping' existed, never having noticed it in over 50 years of concert-going!

[Stan Drews]

And then, of course, there's the 7th horn in Mahler 1, of which much has written on these boards.

[Hornspieler]

Not quite so, HS: I sat in the first row of the organ gallery behind the Wiener horns at an Edinburgh Festival concert around 1976 (Mahler 4 - Abbado). Not only did the sainted Roland Berger have a bumper, but he put aside his Vienna horn in favour of a Paxman alto at one point.

Why on earth would he do that? Yes, it's a busy horn part throughout but it goes neither too low nor too high to be quite playable on any instrument and certainly not on an F alto horn.

(Maybe he was trying it out during that strange duet with the upward tuned Leader?

And then, of course, there's the 7th horn in Mahler 1, of which much has written on these boards.

Yes Stan. But that seventh horn part was written out by Mahler himself when he was told that the orchestra for the first performance had engaged an additional horn player to the six specified.

So Mahler went away and returned with a part specially written for the seventh horn, which embraces all of the extreme parts for the other six and covers a range from Pedal B flat to high F. (Concert pitch)

A compass of 3½ octaves.

I know this because I had to play it with the BBC SO under Bruno Walter in 1955.

Now that is sensible use of a bumper up - to play where needed - which is not always the 1st horn part.

(Quite a Baptism of Fire for a 22 year old in the early stages of professional music making)

HS

[EdgeleyRob]

Thanks HS and others,fascinating stuff.

[Serial_Apologist]

Ah - the dilemmas of a horn!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah - the dilemmas of a horn!

[Hornspieler]

"If you watch such prestigious orchestras as the Berlin PO or the Vienna PO, even when playing Bruckner's and Mahler's heaviest works, you will only see the number of horns on the platform that are specified in the composer's score."

Not quite so, HS: I sat in the first row of the organ gallery behind the Wiener horns at an Edinburgh Festival concert around 1976 (Mahler 4 - Abbado). Not only did the sainted Roland Berger have a bumper, but he put aside his Vienna horn in favour of a Paxman alto at one point.

Is there any truth in the rumour that Herr Berger was ordered to spent six weeks in the orchestra pit of the Vienna State Opera as a punishment for being witnessed in a public concert with a Paxman horn?

HS

[Serial_Apologist]

Is there any truth in the rumour that Herr Berger was ordered to spent six weeks in the orchestra pit of the Vienna State Opera as a punishment for being witnessed in a public concert with a Paxman horn?

HS

A Paxman horn must raise awkward questions!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A Paxman horn must raise awkward questions!

'nnnnnyess.

[Pabmusic]

A Paxman horn must raise awkward questions!

But the beard can be annoying.