Prom 31 - 9.08/14: Hallé, Coote / Elder

[Barbirollians]

I have rather enjoyed this on BBC4 - the presentation egregious as ever but the orchestra and Elder in good form and a central but enjoyable Eroica and I am not sure what the problem is that others have with Alice Coote - a HIPP interpretation perhaps with a touch of the Clara Butt and far from the seaspray and mezzo singing of Baker/Barbirolli but an interesting alternative approach .

It is not an easy work - Kathleen Ferrier for example never really got on with it at all .

[ardcarp]

I enjoyed the BBC4 version too, apart from...

the presentation egregious as ever

...and was interested in Elder's obvious minimisation of the Halle strings' vibrato in the Eroica. I only tuned in halfway through the Sea Pictures (bravo Ms Coote), so am I right that the contemporary piece by Helen Grime was omitted from the TV version...or at least banished to i-player? If so, shame!

[gradus]

I enjoyed the Eroica having missed the other parts of the programme. Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

[EdgeleyRob]

...and was interested in Elder's obvious minimisation of the Halle strings' vibrato in the Eroica. I only tuned in halfway through the Sea Pictures (bravo Ms Coote), so am I right that the contemporary piece by Helen Grime was omitted from the TV version...or at least banished to i-player? If so, shame!

Yes it was,the fate of all these pieces it seems.
Cringeworthy presentation as usual.

[Richard Tarleton]

I enjoyed the Eroica having missed the other parts of the programme. Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

I was going to ask the same thing. I enjoyed the Eroica, I think he/they took it at a cracking pace, no"?

Perhaps HS can shed some light on the horn question?

[Tony Halstead]

I enjoyed the Eroica having missed the other parts of the programme. Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

The 1st horn player was occasionally employing an assistant - sometimes called a 'bumper' - to give his 'lip' a rest from time to time so as to preserve its stamina and sensitivity for the important solo passages.
Hence the four horns.

[Petrushka]

The 1st horn player was occasionally employing an assistant - sometimes called a 'bumper' - to give his 'lip' a rest from time to time so as to preserve its stamina and sensitivity for the important solo passages.
Hence the four horns.

I always thought it was to give the final great horn passage in the finale that extra bit of heft.

[ardcarp]

Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

Good question, gradus. It is definitely only scored for three horns (eg that famous rollicking bit in the 3rd mov't trio) and for much of the time the fourth player was sitting idle. But he did seem to be joining in from time to time. Doubling up another part? Some naughty, unfashionable and definitely un-HIPP re-scoring by Sir M ?

Sorry...just spotted Tony's explanation; but I did think I saw all 4 on the go at one time.

[Pabmusic]

I enjoyed the Eroica having missed the other parts of the programme. Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

Tony's answered it of course, but I'd like to add that from a conducting point of view it would be a very big risk indeed to attempt the Eroica with three horns. They are often very exposed and taken high in the register - especially in the scherzo - and it's a very long work. To impose that on the horns is just asking for the Principal's lip to 'go' (accidentally, of course ) just before some important passage.

The same goes for other 3-horn works - Dvorak's Cello Concerto for instance. It's now becoming common for amateur orchestras to use a bumper (even two - one for the 1st, one for the 3rd) in big 4-horn works.

[Barbirollians]

Tony's answered it of course, but I'd like to add that from a conducting point of view it would be a very big risk indeed to attempt the Eroica with three horns. They are often very exposed and taken high in the register - especially in the scherzo - and it's a very long work. To impose that on the horns is just asking for the Principal's lip to 'go' (accidentally, of course ) just before some important passage.

The same goes for other 3-horn works - Dvorak's Cello Concerto for instance. It's now becoming common for amateur orchestras to use a bumper (even two - one for the 1st, one for the 3rd) in big works.

What helpful insights as usual on this forum . All the best for the premiere of your work at the Prom on Sunday pabs.

[Pabmusic]

What helpful insights as usual on this forum . All the best for the premiere of your work at the Prom on Sunday pabs.

Thank you, Barbs, but it's only 'mine' in a limited sense. GB had a hand in it! (Did you know Butterworth's father was General Manager of the North-Eastern Railway Co., so GB was the Fat Contoller's little boy?)

[ardcarp]

but I'd like to add that from a conducting point of view it would be a very big risk indeed to attempt the Eroica with three horns.

I'm a big risk taker then...having done it in May with the standard 3...though admittedly not in the AH or on radio or TV!!!! For a chamber orchestra with 2 resident horns, having to hire one extra rather than two is kind to the pocket.

Going back to your 'conductor's point of view' Pabs, the thing which scares most of us is the typical Mozart (piano, violin, etc) concerto, lightly scored for wind but with two high and prominent horn parts. Admittedly shorter than Eroica, but with great potential for cocking the whole thing up.

[Hornspieler]

I enjoyed the Eroica having missed the other parts of the programme. Could anyone explain why there were 4 horns when Sir Mark had explained that the score calls for 3?

It is the common practice in British orchestras for the principal horn to demand a "bumper up" to play the less important bits and rest his poor tired lips.* Rather ludicrous on this occasion, because in two of the three passages where all three scheduled horns have a big unison passage which might benefit from being reinforced by a fourth player, the bumper sat with his horn on his knees admiring the other three who were blowing for all that they were worth.

Throughout his career, Dennis Brain never had an "Assistant 1st horn" Nor did his father, Aubrey.

Recording sessions are very expensive. You won't see anyone engaged to "bump up" the principal horn. The management's attitude would be " ... if you can't manage it without help, we'll get someone else."

If you watch such prestigious orchestras as the Berlin PO or the Vienna PO, even when playing Bruckner's and Mahler's heaviest works, you will only see the number of horns on the platform that are specified in the composer's score.

My attitude has always been that I was prepared to take the blame for my own split notes but not for those of the player sitting alongside me.

Even in Brahms' orchestral works, where he scored most of the higher and more difficult solos for the 3rd horn, you will still see the bumper, like a faithful manservant, sitting alongside his master - the Principal Horn.**

** The BBC Symphony Orchestra , to whom spending our money is no object, go even one better - they have two principal players on contract for all sections; so they only have to turn up for half the performances, while the poor Rank and File string players have to play the lot for considerably less money.

Well, you did ask, gradus.

HS

(Overheard in the canteen at Maida Vale Studios)

"Who's leading the orchestra this week?"

"I'm not sure. Which day did you have in mind?"

[Hornspieler]

I always thought it was to give the final great horn passage in the finale that extra bit of heft.

... and there, at the work's climax, he wasn't playing!

Good morning Tony. Nice to see you back!

HS

[Hornspieler]

Tony's answered it of course, but I'd like to add that from a conducting point of view it would be a very big risk indeed to attempt the Eroica with three horns. They are often very exposed and taken high in the register - especially in the scherzo - and it's a very long work. To impose that on the horns is just asking for the Principal's lip to 'go' (accidentally, of course ) just before some important passage.

The same goes for other 3-horn works - Dvorak's Cello Concerto for instance. It's now becoming common for amateur orchestras to use a bumper (even two - one for the 1st, one for the 3rd) in big 4-horn works.

So why not have 3 bumpers? All three parts are of equal importance and each part has its own exposed and important moments.

For the Dvorak Cello concerto, the bumper would be quite unneccesary. The 1st horn's only difficult task is right at the beginning - before the others have even played. After that, the three horns are working as a choir and the addition of a fourth would simply unbalance the ensemble.

With Amateur Orchestras, every member wants to play in the concert. The same happens with Youth Orchestras - which explains the ludicrous sight of 4 harps; seen on a not too distant Prom given by the NYO of Great Britain.

Aren't we having fun with this thread? So far I haven't even mentioned the dodgy intonation of the lower strings, particularly in the slow movement of the Symphony.

Anyway, the helter skelter of the Berlioz overture came off well. (I remember playing this back in 1956 with Beecham and the RPO in Sheffield and Manchester. The opening was just as chaotic even with that prestigious orchestra)

Good morning all. I'm off to the cricket

HS