Prom 15 - 28.07.14: BBC SO, Fliter / Pons

[kernelbogey]

My first prom attendance in two years. TS, I wish I'd known you were there - I was no 16 in the queue (to my considerable surprise) and thus was one back from the barrier (and the tv cameras, a bit of a distraction to say the least) a new experience for me, as a one-time gallery aficionado.

I enjoyed the Dove piece - some terrific orchestration, and beautifully expressive playing.

I was most intent on the Mozart as a bit of a fan of Fliter, who I was keen to hear live; she fully lived up to my hopes and expectations. I endorse TS's description of her presence: she came over as very warm to the audience, arriving with lots of smiles when she came on, and for her calls. I liked her muscular approach to the first movement cadenza. Her memory lapse towards the end of the slow movement was a disturbing distraction from a haunting performance, and it threw the wind section off for a bar or so as they came in. From where I was standing I could see her face but not her hands (wrong call when I chose my place) and she seemed to me to bring some anger to her playing in the last movement. I'll have a listen on iPlayer. (BTW, another reminder that Proms are now available on iPlayer for four weeks* - a welcome innovation, as far as I'm concerned.)

I've now discovered that an ankle problem means that I can't stand for a full concert so I retreated to a seat at the rear for the Daphnis. I understand that there is a new system for the seats which are potentially reserved for those who need a seat. Apparently (according to my neighbour) you ask one of the attendants when queuing for a little card which gives you a kind of droigt de siege.

[Lento]

Enjoyed the Mozart greatly, in particular. The varied orchestral response to Fliter's slight lapse did make for an "imperfect interrupted" cadence, but no damage done really. Nice to hear the full Daphnis once in a while.

[jayne lee wilson]

In 3 movements, 2 and 3 attacca, Jonathan Dove's Gaia sounded straight off a generalised Reich-Adams production line, rather too obviously derivative of more strikingly original composition from the two American Minimalist masters, specifically their more ambitious and extended projects: the Reich of Desert Music (which Gaia almost quotes at times); and the Adams of Harmonielehre, and Naive and Sentimental Music, both of these on the symphonic, largescale fast-slow-fast structure, both with intensely expressive, postRomantic slow movements - all of which Gaia appears to at least adumbrate.

It is in the nature of such works to be a one-off; they work out and through their often simple materials exhaustively (and often thrillingly). So a later work modelled upon them could seem rather more redundant than music in other influential contexts; (eg, David Matthews catching up the odd hommagiste textural echo from Tippett).

Gaia is - easy on the ears, pleasantly foot-tapping in Part 1 at least, wellknit from its 4 or 5 distinct elements and reaching a finely-worked climax; but Part 3 seemed to try too hard to introduce too many new ideas, and lacked the cumulative strength of the opening section. Part 2 did - well, what you'd expect a prettily-scored postRomantic respite to do. Almost inevitably, the music seemed often very static harmonically.

As a suite from a film score one would have little objection to this music, but, presented here with a great verbal flourish of what it all means, as a sort of promo for planetary wellbeing, I'm afraid my disappointment feels all the deeper at its lack of original musical substance.
Sorry to be so critical of new creation, but after 2 hearings I've found little to encourage a third...

[PaulT]

From the foregoing comments I think this must have been one of those Proms that sounded better at home than in the Royal Albert Hall. I bought a ticket to hear Ingrid Fliter live having enjoyed all her CDs for EMI and Linn. Perusing the Proms Guide some weeks ago I chose to ignore that her conductor for the evening was someone I had never heard of. Big mistake. To be fair this is only Josep Pons’ second Prom so perhaps only his second outing at the RAH so should one forgive his total lack of ability to set an appropriate level of orchestral sound for what he must have known was to be an almost full house. His pp was almost inaudible. His ff was mf. Added to which he is one of the masters of what Sir Adrian Boult described as a “Grecian Urn” specialist where the left arm does what the right arm does, no more no less. So to watch is an agony, not a privilege.
I was at Boulez’ Prom in 1970 for the first complete performance of Ravel’s Daphnis & Chloe which lingers in the memory when last night’s effort is already forgotten. Mozart’s K488 was a sympathetic accompaniment, no more no less, and chiefly memorable for so effectively covering for Fliter’s unfortunate memory lapse in the Adagio.
Jonathan Dove’s world premiere that kicked off the evening was by far the most interesting part of the evening for me even though an orchestra of Mahlerian proportions projected well below its weight.
The fleeting level of audience applause for each of the three works caught I think a general view that this was a Prom evening that could have been a great one but wasn’t. However a bold and largely thrilling debut for Ingrid Fliter – her poise, her charm, her touch, the sound she created were lovely. So sad she was denied an encore by a below par contribution from the conductor.
Btw I was sitting in Row 7, Choir East. Fine for Zinman and Ticciati this season and countless other conductors over the past 45 years but not for Mr Pons last night. Nevertheless, I look forward to watching Friday’s BBC 4 relay.

[EdgeleyRob]

Some wonderful reviews there folks.
I'm not sure why I don't enjoy Ravel's music as much as I feel I ought to,or as much as it deserves.

[Suffolkcoastal]

The Dove sounded like 5th rate Adams with some Yoshimatsu thrown in. Loads of fancy orchestration but absolutely no real substance and never really going anywhere. To be honest a lot of it sounded like it had been composed with the aid of a music software programme.

[teamsaint]

The Dove sounded like 5th rate Adams with some Yoshimatsu thrown in. Loads of fancy orchestration but absolutely no real substance and never really going anywhere. To be honest a lot of it sounded like it had been composed with the aid of a music software programme.

Been thinking a lot about this today.
There is something about the live experience that makes a big difference.
The audience last night knew it was in for what was, effectively, a 20 minute concert overture.
Given some decent orchestration, plenty of pulse and effects, and a big climax, did we give it too easy a time, something it wouldn't have got had it been programmed differently, or its interesting origins made known?

Other things make a difference too:live, One buys into the experience with the time and money invested,for example. Which might affect the judgement.

[Roehre]

(I posted this also on the "What are you listening to" thread)

Dove's Gaia theory.
My first reaction was: I'll take off my hat to greet all the composers who are passing in this piece (free after Schumann).
JLW's comments re Reich and (iMO more importantly : ) Adams were in my mind too. But there is more. Other composers are knowingly or subconsciously quoted or amalgamated too. What about Stravinsky's Symphony in Three movements (especially in both Dove's and Stravinsky's finale )? A little bit of Bernstein (West Side Story) and even Antheil (Jazz symphony and 2nd violin sonata specifically).
I like the rhythmic drive, I like the orchestration (inclusive the Mahlerian horns shortly after the beginning of mvt 1), I like the proportions. But it lacks direction. Hence IMO a piece to listen to twice or three times, and then conclude that it's more style (multi-faceted here, or is it just the lack of it?) than substance, Perhaps is the conclusion that Dove is a composer in search of a direction and an own style in this work.
Happens to more composers (Widmann an excellent example IMO). But to be honest I did not expect this from Dove, and in that sense I am doubly disappointed: with the piece itself, and that this is a piece by Dove.

Haven't listened to the Mozart concerto or the Ravel ballet (even though the latter is one of my favourites).

[Serial_Apologist]

(I posted this also on the "What are you listening to" thread)

Dove's Gaia theory.
My first reaction was: I'll take off my hat to greet all the composers who are passing in this piece (free after Schumann).
JLW's comments re Reich and (iMO more importantly : ) Adams were in my mind too. But there is more. Other composers are knowingly or subconsciously quoted or amalgamated too. What about Stravinsky's Symphony in Three movements (especially in both Dove's and Stravinsky's finale )? A little bit of Bernstein (West Side Story) and even Antheil (Jazz symphony and 2nd violin sonata specifically).
I like the rhythmic drive, I like the orchestration (inclusive the Mahlerian horns shortly after the beginning of mvt 1), I like the proportions. But it lacks direction. Hence IMO a piece to listen to twice or three times, and then conclude that it's more style (multi-faceted here, or is it just the lack of it?) than substance, Perhaps is the conclusion that Dove is a composer in search of a direction and an own style in this work.
Happens to more composers (Widmann an excellent example IMO). But to be honest I did not expect this from Dove, and in that sense I am doubly disappointed: with the piece itself, and that this is a piece by Dove.

Haven't listened to the Mozart concerto or the Ravel ballet (even though the latter is one of my favourites).

This, together with YouTube footage I've dug out, and other replies here, comprehensively answers the question I posed in #3 as I had anticipated, thanks.

[kernelbogey]

[...]The fleeting level of audience applause for each of the three works caught I think a general view that this was a Prom evening that could have been a great one but wasn’t. However a bold and largely thrilling debut for Ingrid Fliter – her poise, her charm, her touch, the sound she created were lovely. So sad she was denied an encore by a below par contribution from the conductor[....]

Hmmm... not quite my experience: Fliter received three calls from the audience, whose applause was not dying after the second!

[jayne lee wilson]

Another view from George-in-the-Hall...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/29/proms-2014-classicalmusicandopera

[Zucchini]

Richard Morrison in The Times in case you can't access it:
"Still, far more to grip the ears here [Dove thing] than in Ingrid Fliter's unremarkable account of Mozart's PC in A K488, where the main interest lay in watching the conductor Josep Pons flailing but failing to keep the BBC Symphony Orchestra together."

[teamsaint]

Richard Morrison in The Times in case you can't access it:
"Still, far more to grip the ears here [Dove thing] than in Ingrid Fliter's unremarkable account of Mozart's PC in A K488, where the main interest lay in watching the conductor Josep Pons flailing but failing to keep the BBC Symphony Orchestra together."

Which is the kind of comment that you might easily get from people who are paid to be there,(probably reluctantly), rather than having taken time off work, queued, saved up for a trip to London, actually bought a ticket, or are just out to enjoy the music they love, even if it isnt always perfect.

[jayne lee wilson]

,

Richard Morrison in The Times in case you can't access it:
"Still, far more to grip the ears here [Dove thing] than in Ingrid Fliter's unremarkable account of Mozart's PC in A K488, where the main interest lay in watching the conductor Josep Pons flailing but failing to keep the BBC Symphony Orchestra together."

Perhaps to use Edge's so-useful phrase, you just had NOT to be there... via HDs it sounded beautifully and very carefully engineered, the soundbalancing seeming to relay the conductor's creation of a different sonority or tonal palette for each piece. I noted the same exquisite attention to texture, phrase and detail when Pons directed the BBCSO live from the Barbican last December in Schreker, Ravel, Busoni and Schoenberg. THis isn't the type of conducting to draw attention to itself, let alone play to the gallery. Evidently your audition within the spaces of the RAH is bound to be positionally-dependent...

[PaulT]

Hmmm... not quite my experience: Fliter received three calls from the audience, whose applause was not dying after the second!

Agreed but unfortunately the applause didn't seem to be at a very enthusiastic level to start with and Pons also returned to stage with Fliter, enthusiastically ruffling her hair on a couple of occasions. If he had allowed her a moment on her own....?