Prom 4 - 20.07.14: Mahler 6 etc, World Orchestra for Peace, Gergiev

[Petrushka]

The clouds of dust made the hammer blows even more visually ludicrous than usual, why not record something suitably ominous and play that at the apt moment or simply use an enormous bass drum/anvil etc to preserve something of the intended seriousness.

Looking at what Mahler wanted might be a good start. He asks for 'a short, powerful, heavy-sounding blow of unmetallic quality (like the stroke of an axe)'

The question is, how is this to be achieved? Various methods have been tried but nothing seems to give the right sound. No recording I know of sounds anything other than feeble and in live performance there is, as has been noted, the potential for hilarity. The usual method is to use an enormous bass drum though I remember Abbado, I think, using a piece of raised platform which the player brought down with his foot.

[Lento]

Then there's the question of how to achieve the required mortar effect in the 1812, to go off on a tangent. One critic said the other night's attempt wasn't particularly strong, but it sounded quite powerful on my speakers!

[BBMmk2]

That method Gergiev used, apart from all the other notes that were played, wasn't a very good idea.

[amateur51]

Looking at what Mahler wanted might be a good start. He asks for 'a short, powerful, heavy-sounding blow of unmetallic quality (like the stroke of an axe)'

The question is, how is this to be achieved? Various methods have been tried but nothing seems to give the right sound. No recording I know of sounds anything other than feeble and in live performance there is, as has been noted, the potential for hilarity. The usual method is to use an enormous bass drum though I remember Abbado, I think, using a piece of raised platform which the player brought down with his foot.

I recall Abbado's doing that with LSO too Pet

[amateur51]

Is that why Mahler cut the third stroke?

Well surely everone knows that at the third stroke, the time sponsored by Accurist will be ...

[amateur51]

Looking at what Mahler wanted might be a good start. He asks for 'a short, powerful, heavy-sounding blow of unmetallic quality (like the stroke of an axe)'

The question is, how is this to be achieved?

Under von Karajan at London's RFH in the mid-1970s I recall the BPO's having a large purpose-built wooden anvil that was hit with such force by a purpose built wooden hammer that the anvil jumped in the air.

This was as nothing however to the surprise of finding earlier in the performance that the cow-bells were pre-recorded and played on a reel-to-reel tape player

[Hornspieler]

Under von Karajan at London's RFH in the mid-1970s I recall the BPO's having a large purpose-built wooden anvil that was hit with such force by a purpose built wooden hammer that the anvil jumped in the air.

This was as nothing however to the surprise of finding earlier in the performance that the cow-bells were pre-recorded and played on a reel-to-reel tape player

"Hit me with your Rhythm Stick!"

Do you remember that popular ditty of the 1950s?

Well, if Gergiev were to hit the block with that toothpick that he uses as a baton, it would save all this argument about how many blows.

HS

[Oliver]

I assume that Berg required the same "instrument" in his Three Pieces for Orchestra.
Has anyone else?

[Petrushka]

I assume that Berg required the same "instrument" in his Three Pieces for Orchestra.
Has anyone else?

The funny thing about recordings of the Berg is that the hammer blows come across with considerably more devastating force than they do in recordings of the Mahler 6, Quite why this should be I really don't know. If John Culshaw could give us that wonderful Donner thunder in the Rheingold recording back in 1958 then you'd think that with all the technical and electronic wizardry now available giving us a convincing Mahler 6 hammer blow would be a doddle. Sadly, no-one, as far as I know, has yet managed it and it's left to the imagination to provide what's missing.

[Nick Armstrong]

The clouds of dust made the hammer blows even more visually ludicrous than usual, why not record something suitably ominous and play that at the apt moment or simply use an enormous bass drum/anvil etc to preserve something of the intended seriousness.

I missed the 'dusty hammer' issue at the time, and just came across this complete video of the performance.

HEALTH NOTICE: Those with an allergy to Gergiev but not to dust should proceed directly to 1:01:40...!