Prom 1 - 18.07.14: The First Night - Elgar: The Kingdom, BBC SO / A. Davis

[Nick Armstrong]

Fine for pious Edwardians, no doubt, but not much to say otherwise. The performance is pretty good, I think, but there's a limit to what can be done with it.

Gerontius goes beyond Christianity to something universal.

That is all exactly how I feel about it, Mary.

I've always longed for The Apostles, The Kingdom etc, to deliver anything approaching the punch packed by Gerontius. They just don't, for me.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'll continue with my usual policy of quickly passing over posts that cast a vote (or, those that don't say very much, or just pick fights with usual suspects of known opinion, etc, etc.....)

Is there anything left?!

[Cockney Sparrow]

Is there anything left?!

I had intended, probably, not to post again in this thread - but FHG I do appreciate the comment and the humour

FWIW, as I understand it, Elgar encountered much opposition with Gerontius (didn't the Dean of ? Gloucester (I've no time to check it was Gloucester) refuse to sanction performance because it was too explicitly Catholic?). Elgar felt Gerontius was the best of him, and its known he was sensitive to criticism (to put it mildly) and acutely and correctly felt an outsider from the Establishment of the time. No wonder he made sure the following Oratorios wouldn't allow the same criticisms, if he wanted performance and to make a living.....

(It also occurs, BTW, - on the views of some here, King Olaf and Caractacus would qualify for listening to the end of the piece....)

Anyhow, the way is now clear to get back to pigeonholing the work in its historical and religious context, and criticising the quality of the piece. My judgement is that its a wonderful piece - but then on any work or composer, there will always be those for whom it just "does not work".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My judgement is that its a wonderful piece - but then on any work or composer, there will always be those for whom it just "does not work".

I'm really glad to hear this - and had hoped for more people to say how much they love the piece: it'd be terrible for a composer (any composer) to have spent so much time and emotional energy* on a work that received almost no unqualified appreciation.

EDIT: It's occured to me (three hours later) that this might sound like a criticism of Pab's "his heart wasn't in it" comment; which I didn't intend - it's often the case that one puts more "emotional energy" into something that we feel obliged to do than that for which we have greatest enthusiasm.

[P. G. Tipps]

I don't know about the Elgar, But in general I'd comment that Catholicism is highly dogmatic and so alienating to outsiders (and to sentient insiders) whereas Protestantism and paganism are much more human and so tolerable to all sorts of people.

Thanks, HG ... at least that was an honest answer/opinion and you certainly didn't duck the question!

As for the music itself I'm not usually one for large-scale choral works, whoever the composer, but there was something compelling about last night which made me sit it out to the very end.

Might only happen once in a while and when I'm in a suitably receptive mood, I suspect!

[PJPJ]

My judgement is that its a wonderful piece - but then on any work or composer, there will always be those for whom it just "does not work".

I'm inclined to agree with you in all respects though I must confess I know The Kingdom and The Apostles far less than I do Gerontius. Davis and co's performance seemed to me suitably dramatic and beautifully prepared and gave me much pleasure. As I mentioned before, I do not know how they cope in the heat.

[Lento]

To me the "libretto" looks terribly dull on paper and I am impressed by the extent to which Elgar's music brings it to life, for much of the time. In purely musical terms there is much to enjoy, IMV, and the Prelude strikes me as a splendid piece of music.

There's an amusing review from Richard Morrison in The Times, whether one agrees with all of it or not. He comments on Andrew Davis' tempi in a not entirely complimentary way:

"His speeds may sometimes remind one of a vintage Daimler ascending Highgate Hill with the handbrake still on, and there were many moments when he allowed the plump Edwardian orchestrations to sprawl over the vocal soloists, but he understands rubato — the ebb and flow of tempo within phrases — and that is the key to interpreting Elgar".

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/music/proms/article4152268.ece

[Vile Consort]

How truly distressing ...

Does listening to Wagner in Pagan mode or Bach in Protestant mode turm your stomach over and cause you to switch off as well?

No. Nor do Victoria, Palestrina, Lassus, Byrd or Tallis in Catholic mode; quite the reverse, in fact. It's what Elgar does with it that I find repulsive, not Catholicism per se.

[EdgeleyRob]

You don't have to be at all religious to appreciate this marvelous work IMO.

Some of Elgar's finest music is here,the prelude and of course The Sun.

It wouldn't do for us all to like and dislike the same music,The Kingdom works for some,not for others,that's the way it goes.

[VodkaDilc]

There's an amusing review from Richard Morrison in The Times, whether one agrees with all of it or not. He comments on Andrew Davis' tempi in a not entirely complimentary way:

"His speeds may sometimes remind one of a vintage Daimler ascending Highgate Hill with the handbrake still on, and there were many moments when he allowed the plump Edwardian orchestrations to sprawl over the vocal soloists, but he understands rubato — the ebb and flow of tempo within phrases — and that is the key to interpreting Elgar".

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/m...cle4152268.ece

Since The Times only allows me to read the first two paragraphs, I have consulted The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/19/first-night-proms-elgar-kingdom-review

Slightly more complimentary than Morrison. I was amused by her reference to the duet between Stephen Bryant and Erin Wall. In my part of the stalls it was a trio. The lady behind me allowed her mobile phone to go off during a pp passage - and one of the most vulgar tones imaginable. As if that wasn't enough, she then fanned herself noisily with her programme for the rest of the concert. The elderly gent next to me looked furious, but, like me, said nothing.

[ardcarp]

A fair review from The Guardian, though she didn't mention Davis's special skill with choir, surprisingly.

Going back to a previous thread:

Nor do Victoria, Palestrina, Lassus, Byrd or Tallis in Catholic mode

Weren't they always in Catholic mode, even when [in Byrd's and Tallis's case] they weren't meant to be? I think most of us who have sung around a lot have spent half our lives singing 'Catholic' music, the other half 'Protestant' music and haven't been in the least bothered by matters sectarian.

[Lento]

Since The Times only allows me to read the first two paragraphs, I have consulted The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...kingdom-review

In which case you missed Morrison's quip about " longueurs that, on a stifling night, seemed to get longueur and longueur", although I should say that he also has other more positive things to say. The Guardian review is more informative: interesting about the work only being performed complete twice at Proms, as it is listed quite frequently, I think, in the archive; so presumably these performances had cuts.

Very positive and informative review from Ivan Hewett in the Telegraph also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/proms/10977367/Proms-2014-First-Night-of-the-Proms-review-time-stood-still.html

[Honoured Guest]

Very positive and informative review from Ivan Hewett in the Telegraph also:

Has Ivan Hewett been tipped for Controller, Radio 3 or for Director of the Proms? When he presented Music Matters [or its predecessor(?)] he always seemed interested in and interesting on every musical subject, and more self-controlled than Tom Service who's always tripping over himself. Just a thought ...

[seabright]

Since The Times only allows me to read the first two paragraphs, I have consulted The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/19/first-night-proms-elgar-kingdom-review

Slightly more complimentary than Morrison. I was amused by her reference to the duet between Stephen Bryant and Erin Wall. In my part of the stalls it was a trio. The lady behind me allowed her mobile phone to go off during a pp passage - and one of the most vulgar tones imaginable. As if that wasn't enough, she then fanned herself noisily with her programme for the rest of the concert. The elderly gent next to me looked furious, but, like me, said nothing.

The comments under the Guardian review make entertaining reading ... "Boring piece of Elgar" ... "Awful, tedious piece of Victorian claptrap ... changed channels..." ... a dreadful example of overblown Victoriana..." ... " A couple of hours of Stockhausen would have been more understandable" ... Well, at least we know what Guardian readers think ... :)

[Sir Velo]

The comments under the Guardian review make entertaining reading ... "Boring piece of Elgar" ... "Awful, tedious piece of Victorian claptrap ... changed channels..." ... a dreadful example of overblown Victoriana..." ... " A couple of hours of Stockhausen would have been more understandable" ... Well, at least we know what Guardian readers think ... :)

Obviously MrGG has been putting in his twopennorth..