Proms audience behaviour

[Pianorak]

I think there should be a compulsory electronically-triggered body odour monitor that concert and opera goers must walk through . . .

. . . combined with a perfume and/or after-shave monitor, please! Some of the scents can be just too much - at least for my oversensitive nose.

[gradus]

May I enter a modest plea on behalf of shouters everywhere. For us the moribund-seeming polite audience reaction after an overwhelming musical experience is as unfathomable as the desire for vocal expression is to the silent ones. Live and let live.

[french frank]

May I enter a modest plea on behalf of shouters everywhere. For us the moribund-seeming polite audience reaction after an overwhelming musical experience is as unfathomable as the desire for vocal expression is to the silent ones. Live and let live.

I think there's a flaw in that. If the noisy people are noisy and the quiet people are quiet, the result is - NOISE.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think there's a flaw in that. If the noisy people are noisy and the quiet people are quiet, the result is - NOISE.

It's unavoidable - loud clapping whether with or without cheering; I (a relatively introverted person) am as guilty of enthusiasm as anyone. Surely there are alternative convivial settings for conjoint celebration to football matches and pentecostal services?! (Though I would ban the loud whistling one gets at jazz concerts, which is usually just showing off, to judge by their body language, as being eardrum-damaging. Fortunately I haven't come across that at Proms).

[Oldcrofter]

I've been to several concerts in Sweden in churches and often there is no applause at all when the programme is "serious" music - whether the music has a religious background or not.

I find the habit/tradition rather discomforting when several songs or performances go by with no discernible reaction from the audience. The other evening, a couple of choir members did start to applaud, hesitantly, after one of the choir (and therefore one of their friends) had sung a solo. The audience picked up on this - but reluctantly, and lapsed into silence until the end of the concert.

In this country with song recitals, it's easiest to indicate/request applause at the end of a group of songs (usually two or three with a space on the printed programme after each group) unless it's a song cycle (in which case, at the end of the final song).

With major choral works, audiences seem to know that applause is restricted to immediately before the interval and at the end of the work - I've never heard an audience applaud a solo or chorus.

[Serial_Apologist]

With major choral works, audiences seem to know that applause is restricted to immediately before the interval and at the end of the work - I've never heard an audience applaud a solo or chorus.

Interesting that you should mention this as being the case in choral concerts, OC. At jazz and improv gigs I have noticed a recent tendency towards less solo applauding, almost as if in complicit agreement that the "vibes" call for the audience not to be robbed of the musician's attention as they take the music into the next area.

[Flosshilde]

I think there should be a compulsory electronically-triggered body odour monitor that concert and opera goers must walk through (like at an airport) as it can totally ruin one's concert experience if a 'stinker' is sitting within range, or worst of all, in the next seat. There is no excuse for being unclean. If they are deemed to be too unclean they have the choice of going to a specially designated isolated area to watch and listen, or simply to go home.

I'd rather sit next to someone with a natural smell than wearing a liberal application of the dreadful perfumes sold by fasion houses (or fading footballers etc).

The belief that the smell of a deodorant is better than a natural body smell is yet another Americanisation of European culture.

[Flosshilde]

as guilty of enthusiasm as anyone.

Well, god forbid that we should be enthusiastic.

As has been pointed out in past airings of this subject, in the past it was perfectly acceptable - indeed, expected - for people to applaud between movements in symphonies, oratorios, etc. Then it became acceptable, or expected, to wait until the end of the work. Now there is a tendency to return to the former practice. What's the problem?

[Mary Chambers]

I agree most perfumes are awful (perfume wasn't allowed in any choir I've been in, but unfortunately it's not forbidden for audiences), but I don't want 'natural body smells' either. Best just to smell of nothing in particular. Deodorants don't have to be scented.

[Lento]

Well, god forbid that we should be enthusiastic.

As has been pointed out in past airings of this subject, in the past it was perfectly acceptable - indeed, expected - for people to applaud between movements in symphonies, oratorios, etc. Then it became acceptable, or expected, to wait until the end of the work. Now there is a tendency to return to the former practice. What's the problem?

Sorry if I'm flogging an old discussion, but isn't it a case of a reverse version of "if the times are bad, why move with them"? Just because things were done a certain way in the past doesn't necessarily mean we should alter what we do, imv. Nobody would want to interpolate bits of unrelated music between concerto movements, say, or perform a Bach cantata with audience members noisily coming and going, or tolerate eating and talking during the music.

[LeMartinPecheur]

"Mahler clamped down on claques paid to applaud a particular performer, and specified in the score of his Kindertotenlieder that its movements should not be punctuated by applause" (Wiki):

Poor Mahler, ever the control-freak. He must be spinning!

When I read this quotation from GM it struck me as ambiguous: was he objecting to applause between movements (as Lento presumably thinks) or within movements?

A check on the Wiki entry suggests that the latter is perfectly possible:
"Concert etiquette has, like the music, evolved over time. Late eighteenth-century composers such as Mozart expected that people would talk, particularly at dinner, and took delight in audiences clapping at once in response to a nice musical effect.^[4] Orchestras often stood while playing, and individual movements were encored in response to audience applause.The nineteenth century brought a shift in venue from aristocratic gatherings to public concerts along with works featuring an unprecedentedly wide dynamic range. Mahler clamped down on claques paid to applaud a particular performer, and specified in the score of his Kindertotenlieder that its movements should not be punctuated by applause."

[Lento]

When I read this quotation from GM it struck me as ambiguous: was he objecting to applause between movements (as Lento presumably thinks) or within movements? A check on the Wiki entry suggests that the latter is perfectly possible

If it was the latter which Mahler feared, the thought of it must have really upset him, being such a sensitive individual.

[Flosshilde]

Sorry if I'm flogging an old discussion, but isn't it a case of a reverse version of "if the times are bad, why move with them"? Just because things were done a certain way in the past doesn't necessarily mean we should alter what we do, imv.

No, but equally just because things are done in a certain way now doesn't mean that they won't, or shoudn't, change. Different times & places have different customs - not better, or worse, just different.

[LeMartinPecheur]

If it was the latter which Mahler feared, the thought of it must have really upset him, being such a sensitive individual.

A bit more googling strongly suggests that it was indeed applause between movements that GM wanted to prevent. This from Classical Net: "These five songs form a complete and indivisible whole, and for this reason their continuity must be preserved (by preventing interruptions, such as for applause at the end of each song)." ~ Mahler, on the first page of the score.

Does anyone have the original German to make absolutely sure that the parenthesis is GM's, not editorial?

EDIT Even if the parenthesis is editorial amplification, I guess it's still pretty clear that GM wanted no applause at all between the first bar of the first song and the last of the last. But doesn't this stipulation suggest that applause between movements was still common, maybe even the norm??

[Flosshilde]

EDIT Even if the parenthesis is editorial amplification, I guess it's still pretty clear that GM wanted no applause at all between the first bar of the first song and the last of the last. But doesn't this stipulation suggest that applause between movements was still common, maybe even the norm?? [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Possibly not - even today programmes - or performers - request that the audience should wait until the end of a group of songs before applauding.