On Gergiev and the WOfP

[CallMePaul]

I believe that Karajan had a lot of abuse directed at him in the early 50s when he conducted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I don't know whether he refused to conduct in the USA after that or whether he was simply not invited back to that country, or was banned because of his Nazi connections from entering the USA after that.

[Beef Oven!]

I believe that Karajan had a lot of abuse directed at him in the early 50s when he conducted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I don't know whether he refused to conduct in the USA after that or whether he was simply not invited back to that country, or was banned because of his Nazi connections from entering the USA after that.

It's so long ago that I read the various books on K that I can't remember the detail. I don't think he was banned, not sure it works like that, and wouldn't they have banned him first time 'round?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I believe that Karajan had a lot of abuse directed at him in the early 50s when he conducted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I don't know whether he refused to conduct in the USA after that or whether he was simply not invited back to that country, or was banned because of his Nazi connections from entering the USA after that.

Aren't you confusing him with Furtwangler here, Paul? (Karajan toured with the Philharmonia in the '50s, and with the Berliners and VPO in the 60s, 70s and 80s - as well as conducting at the Met in the 60s, too.

IIRC, Furtwangler was seriously considered for the post of Chief Conductor in Chicago in the '50s, but the idea was dropped because of demonstrations and hostility in the Press.

EDIT: Protests at Furtwangler concerts with the NYPO in 1936 and with the CSO in 1948. Tickets had sold well for the BPO tour he was due to lead in 1955, but he died and was replaced by Karajan.

[Honoured Guest]

as do two very dear colleagues of mine.

I don't blame Gergiev.

From the Russian point of view Putin's clawing back the Crimea is fully justified.

It would be different if Gergiev were to defend the eastern-Ukrainian separatists.

I guess you don't like to listen to Karajan e.g. for supporting that regime in Berlin in those years?

Your two very dear colleagues have probably now been removed from their point of landing, so as to prevent forensic investigation.

How would support of Russian aggression, even if it were fully justified, be compatible with World Peace?

Reading these justifications of Gergiev at the Proms help me understand how the BBC continued to promote Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris.

[pilamenon]

Your two very dear colleagues have probably now been removed from their point of landing, so as to prevent forensic investigation.

How would support of Russian aggression, even if it were fully justified, be compatible with World Peace?

Reading these justifications of Gergiev at the Proms help me understand how the BBC continued to promote Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris.

That's a fair point.

However, you do have to wonder how informed concert-goers are about Gergiev's relationship with Putin. I'm certainly not clear about this - which actions of Putin's has Gergiev actually endorsed, or is it the fact that they are friends and Gergiev depends on Putin for patronage? Jeering Gergiev at this concert would be tantamount to making a number of assumptions, including pre-judging the outcome of the investigation into the crash, as the British tabloids have done with their "Putin's victims" headlines, and for all we know Gergiev may be very uncomfortable with the situation.

That said, I agree with those who acknowledge that politics does sometimes have to intrude on the music. I certainly can't listen to Gergiev conducting the World Orchestra for Peace without some degree of unease. And Honoured Guest's point raises the question of whether anyone at the BBC is uneasy about applauding this conductor in the usual uncritical way at the current time.

[Barbirollians]

The annexation of Crimea is in gross breach of international law hence wholly unjustified .

Had a proper and fair referendum been held such as in Scotland followed by a treaty of secession and reunion that would be another matter - not annexation at gunpoint .

[richardfinegold]

I believe that Karajan had a lot of abuse directed at him in the early 50s when he conducted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I don't know whether he refused to conduct in the USA after that or whether he was simply not invited back to that country, or was banned because of his Nazi connections from entering the USA after that.

I think you are confusing him with Furtwangler, who declined the offer to be the Conductor here in the late 40s after an outcry from the local Jewish Community.

[Bryn]

I think you are confusing him with Furtwangler, who declined the offer to be the Conductor here in the late 40s after an outcry from the local Jewish Community.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-07-17/news/8902170936_1_berlin-philharmonic-orchestra-herbert-von-karajan-vienna-philharmonic

[Aotearoa]

Coming back to this discussion rather late - flew down this morning to my job in Christchurch from sleepy Paraparaumu.
It is difficult for us not to ignore Gergiev's political views when he actively espouses them. It is one-sided to then expect us to keep out lips buttoned because he pulls out the equivalent of diplomatic immunity and says it is all about the music.
I think that what is clear is that tyrants crave respectability and a veneer of sophistication. They drape their regimes with the likes of Gergiev or Karajan. It must be difficult to ignore and refuse the attention for a number of reasons. It reminds us that talent is sprinkled on humans; a musical genius is just another human after all.

[teamsaint]

If Gergiev wants to avoid this kind of controversy, a simple statement stating his opposition or distaste for the Anti gay laws would go a long way to disarm his critics.
He can't be bothered to, or doesn't want to. So he really can't be surprised that his critics use what power they have, (in the the way that he does to further his career) to oppose him.
If he did, the critics might look elsewhere for perhaps more important targets. There are plenty of decent targets around just now.

Also, abundant is good music written or performed by people whose views are less distasteful, so I'll stick with them for now.

The LSO really needs to have a good look at itself, incidentally.

[cloughie]

The LSO really needs to have a good look at itself, incidentally.

They may or may not get Rattled in the future!

[Beef Oven!]

If Gergiev wants to avoid this kind of controversy, a simple statement stating his opposition or distaste for the Anti gay laws would go a long way to disarm his critics.
He can't be bothered to, or doesn't want to. So he really can't be surprised that his critics use what power they have, (in the the way that he does to further his career) to oppose him.
If he did, the critics might look elsewhere for perhaps more important targets. There are plenty of decent targets around just now.

Also, abundant is good music written or performed by people whose views are less distasteful, so I'll stick with them for now.

The LSO really needs to have a good look at itself, incidentally.

Vote with your feet, by all means - but don't think with them!

Indeed there are far bigger threats to a democratic and egalitarian way of life than Putin and the (it has to be said) the marvellous Gergiev, but we are too chicken to talk about it. Far easier to do all the chest-beating and choose an easier target for our ultimately insincere concerns.

Btw, last night's Gergiev WOfP prom seems to have been an early high-point.

[LHC]

The LSO really needs to have a good look at itself, incidentally.

Although I think the relationship with the LSO has gone stale, if they were to sack him now for being Russian, they would probably have to buy him out of his contract at considerable expense. As he is leaving next year, far better to let his contract run out and leave it to the Munich Philharmonic to deal with the political fall out of his friendship with Putin.

[teamsaint]

Vote with your feet, by all means - but don't think with them!

Indeed there are far bigger threats to a democratic and egalitarian way of life than Putin and the (it has to be said) the marvellous Gergiev, but we are too chicken to talk about it. Far easier to do all the chest-beating and choose an easier target for our ultimately insincere concerns.

Btw, last night's Gergiev WOfP prom seems to have been an early high-point.

There are other huge threats to democracy, liberty and so on.
But Gergiev is very visible, and this is significant. The real dangers often lurk in the shadows.
Not easy necessarily to take on targets on a "biggest threat first" basis, especially when protest is diluted to effectively by the media.


Who is too chicken to talk about these concerns?

[amateur51]

Who is too chicken to talk about these concerns?

Thanks teams