On Gergiev and the WOfP

[Beef Oven!]

I was shocked to hear Petroc Trelawney, of all people, say while presenting tonight's Prom, that he was pleased to have seen Valery Gergiev rehearsing at the RAH. Petroc, of course, has had his own problems with an evil warlord turned dictator, namely Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe for trying to promote western classical music to deprived black Zimbabweans - highly subversive activity of course!

In view of Vladimir Putin's clear involvement in the horror in Ukraine yesterday, I would hope that UK Border Force will arrest Gergiev, put him in a detention centre and on the first plane back to Russia, his passport endorsed "undesirable alien". The LSO should sack him as its Musical Director without notice. I hope that both the Proms he directs will be unable to go ahead because the audience will not allow him to appear on stage. If I lived in London I would probably attempt a citizen's arrest and hand him over to immigration authorities - he is not welcome in this country (and I hope the Rotterdam Philharmonic also sacks him as its Musical Director) and I hope that audiences show their disapproval by returning tickets to the box office!

Meanwhile, back on Earth..................

Are we not making the mistake that most people don't share the view that we in this forum hold about this?

There does appear to be a dissonance between our view, and what's actually happening.

[teamsaint]

I'm not entirely sure what the poster means here, but I'm taking it as a compliment.

oh, I rather assumed, given your location on the Bodrum peninsuka, that Alison meant that its a bit of a Turkey.

or, that they are not far from being all at sea.....

[MrGongGong]

Are we not making the mistake that most people don't share the view that we in this forum hold about this?
.

Which is what exactly ?

[Beef Oven!]

Which is what exactly ?

That Gergiev is evil and uses music to oppress or kill people. Read the posts for details.

[Beef Oven!]

oh, I rather assumed, given your location on the Bodrum peninsuka, that Alison meant that its a bit of a Turkey.

or, that they are not far from being all at sea.....

ts, you're a wasted talent.

[MrGongGong]

That Gergiev is evil and uses music to oppress or kill people. Read the posts for details.

I think you've been in the sun a bit too much I thought that was Stockhausen's job ?
I've met Gergiev and he didn't kill anyone (as far as I know)
but we really shouldn't be encouraging him

[Beef Oven!]

I think you've been in the sun a bit too much I thought that was Stockhausen's job ?
I've met Gergiev and he didn't kill anyone (as far as I know)
but we really shouldn't be encouraging him

Be careful, or I'll tell Gergiev that it was you making all that racket in an adjacent studio when he was trying to rehearse Der Ring last year in Switzerland.

[MrGongGong]

Be careful, or I'll tell Gergiev that it was you making all that racket in an adjacent studio when he was trying to rehearse Der Ring last year in Switzerland.

It was Mahler 3 actually
And I'm going back there this week
so will tell him myself if I see him (falling out of a nightclub at 2:30 in the morning ? ....... erm "Allegedly" )

At least you aren't doing the "music has nothing to do with politics" nonsense

[Beef Oven!]

It was Mahler 3 actually
And I'm going back there this week
so will tell him myself if I see him (falling out of a nightclub at 2:30 in the morning ? ....... erm "Allegedly" )

At least you aren't doing the "music has nothing to do with politics" nonsense

If you do bump into him, can you get me his autograph, please?

[Roehre]

Giergiev announced his support of Putin's actions in Ukraine earlier this year - keep politics out of music and we all say.
Our little town in No-where, New Zealand mourns the senseless murder of one of our residents whose body currently lies in a field in eastern Ukraine.

as do two very dear colleagues of mine.

I don't blame Gergiev.

From the Russian point of view Putin's clawing back the Crimea is fully justified.

It would be different if Gergiev were to defend the eastern-Ukrainian separatists.

I guess you don't like to listen to Karajan e.g. for supporting that regime in Berlin in those years?

[Beef Oven!]

as do two very dear colleagues of mine.

But please leave politics at this stage for what they are: personal opinions.
I guess you don't like to listen to Karajan e.g. for supporting that regime in Berlin in those years?

K didn't 'support the regime in Berlin in those years', unless you know something the rest of us don't know.

[Roehre]

K didn't 'support the regime in Berlin in those years', unless you know something the rest of us don't know.

Becoming a party member in 1933 e.g.?

[Beef Oven!]

Becoming a party member in 1933 e.g.?

But we all know that.

Does not amount to supporting the regime.

Here's what Richard Osborne/Wicki says...



British musicologist and critic Richard Osborne states:

What are the facts? First, though Karajan was nominated for membership in the as yet unbanned Party in Salzburg in April 1933, he did not collect his card, sign it, or pay his dues, though the registration itself (no. 1607525) got on to the files and crops up in many memoranda and enquiries thereafter. Secondly, he did not join the Party on 1 May 1933 despite prima-facie evidence to the contrary. In the first place, the membership number 3430914 is too high to belong to that date. The highest number issued before the freeze on membership, which lasted from May 1933 to March 1937, was 3262698. However, during the freeze, various functionaries, diplomats, and others were issued cards bearing an NG, or Nachgereichte, designation. These cards were, by convention, backdated to the start of the freeze: 1 May 1933. Karajan's Aachen membership was an NG card, and its number accords with batches issued in 1935, the year Karajan had always identified as the one in which he was asked to join the Party.[30]

Karajan's prominence increased from 1933 to 1945, which has led to speculation that he joined the Nazi Party solely to advance his music career. Critics such as Jim Svejda[citation needed] have pointed out that other prominent conductors, such as Arturo Toscanini, Otto Klemperer, Erich Kleiber, and Fritz Busch, fled from fascist Europe at the time. However, Richard Osborne noted that among the many significant conductors who continued to work in Germany throughout the war years—Wilhelm Furtwängler, Ernest Ansermet, Carl Schuricht, Karl Böhm, Hans Knappertsbusch, Clemens Krauss and Karl Elmendorff—Karajan was one of the youngest and thus one of the least advanced in his career.[31] Karajan was allowed to conduct various orchestras and was free to travel, even to the Netherlands to conduct the Concertgebouw Orchestra and make recordings there in 1943.[32]

[Roehre]

But we all know that.

Does not amount to supporting the regime.

Here's what Richard Osborne/Wicki says...



British musicologist and critic Richard Osborne states:

What are the facts? First, though Karajan was nominated for membership in the as yet unbanned Party in Salzburg in April 1933, he did not collect his card, sign it, or pay his dues, though the registration itself (no. 1607525) got on to the files and crops up in many memoranda and enquiries thereafter. Secondly, he did not join the Party on 1 May 1933 despite prima-facie evidence to the contrary. In the first place, the membership number 3430914 is too high to belong to that date. The highest number issued before the freeze on membership, which lasted from May 1933 to March 1937, was 3262698. However, during the freeze, various functionaries, diplomats, and others were issued cards bearing an NG, or Nachgereichte, designation. These cards were, by convention, backdated to the start of the freeze: 1 May 1933. Karajan's Aachen membership was an NG card, and its number accords with batches issued in 1935, the year Karajan had always identified as the one in which he was asked to join the Party.[30]

Karajan's prominence increased from 1933 to 1945, which has led to speculation that he joined the Nazi Party solely to advance his music career. Critics such as Jim Svejda[citation needed] have pointed out that other prominent conductors, such as Arturo Toscanini, Otto Klemperer, Erich Kleiber, and Fritz Busch, fled from fascist Europe at the time. However, Richard Osborne noted that among the many significant conductors who continued to work in Germany throughout the war years—Wilhelm Furtwängler, Ernest Ansermet, Carl Schuricht, Karl Böhm, Hans Knappertsbusch, Clemens Krauss and Karl Elmendorff—Karajan was one of the youngest and thus one of the least advanced in his career.[31] Karajan was allowed to conduct various orchestras and was free to travel, even to the Netherlands to conduct the Concertgebouw Orchestra and make recordings there in 1943.[32]

with a brilliant contradiction as the party card number is clearly from before the freezing: actually Karajan became not once, but twice party member. And in 1935 he still was an Austrian citizen, why then accepting a Nazi-membership at that time?
It were an easy step to mention his non-german-citizenship at that time in Aachen as reason not to join.

Wikipedia is unreliable I'm afraid, quoting Osborne doesn't change this unreliability.

[Beef Oven!]

with a brilliant contradiction as the party card number is clearly from before the freezing: actually Karajan became not once, but twice party member. And in 1935 he still was an Austrian citizen, why then accepting a Nazi-membership at that time?
It were an easy step to mention his non-german-citizenship at that time in Aachen as reason not to join.

Wikipedia is unreliable I'm afraid, quoting Osborne doesn't change this unreliability.

But let's not lose sight of the exam question. Did K 'support the (Nazi) regime, at the time in Berlin?

There seems to be no evidence that supports the view that he supported the regime. The most we've got is that he joined the Nazi Party in Austria, never collected his card or paid his subs (never mind anything else). Not much to support the view that he was a supporter.

Now a different question. Did K join the Austrian Nazi Party? Answer - yes!