Pop goes the weasel

[teamsaint]

Remember that BBC Magazines sold Radio Times to a private equity company nearly three years ago. The BBC no longer owns or manages the magazine. It's an independent, for-profit publication. Covers are designed to attract sales. Which classical composer or performer featured in this year's Proms do you propose for the cover who you'd expect to achieve more sales than Gareth Malone, who is in part a classical performer anyway?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14548951

It's misleading to say there's any pop music in this year's Proms. These concerts all feature popular soloists performing with orchestras. I suppose you could categorise some as light music, which has always featured in the Proms, but that doesn't really fit well because much of their music is actually quite serious in its genre.

Dusty Springfield sang with an orchestra. She was a pop singer, end of.I'm not sure if I would call her music "serious" or not, but it has stood the test of time.
Putting a pop "soloist" in front of an orchestra in a big hall in a classical music series does not immediately turn them into a "serious" act, whatever one of those is.

These marketing experiments have nothing to do with musical interest or invention, and everything to do with money, and , I dare say, some nice summer diversions for the children of the London chattering classes.

Other than selling tickets, these concerts (like the Stranglers Prom) would fail any test you put them through IMHO. At least the Folk and World proms had some elements of authenticity.

[Honoured Guest]

Other than selling tickets, these concerts (like the Stranglers Prom) would fail any test you put them through IMHO. At least the Folk and World proms had some elements of authenticity.

Yes, it's quite noticeable that there's absolutely no equivalent this year of the Stranglers Prom. As far as I can see, every concert this year is an orchestral event, with no artist simply going onstage with their usual show. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this year's programme has addressed your criticism of some Proms events of earlier years.

[teamsaint]

Yes, it's quite noticeable that there's absolutely no equivalent this year of the Stranglers Prom. As far as I can see, every concert this year is an orchestral event, with no artist simply going onstage with their usual show. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this year's programme has addressed your criticism of some Proms events of earlier years.

As far as I recall, the Stranglers DID play with an orchestra, an experiment that seems not to have worked as an ongoing model.
I would far rather see interesting musicians from other fields presenting what they normally do in a Proms context, if the Proms has space. AS JLW pointed out though, there is lots of music that is probably a more sensible fit, and that also might expand the audience than already well exposed pop and rock acts.

I am all for interesting experiments, and for confronting audiences with the new and unexpected, (from time to time)but these concerts, like the 6 Music prom really don't do that. They just conveniently sell plenty of tickets while ticking various BBC remit boxes.

To reiterate, some attempt at authenticity, like the Folk Prom, seems to me essential, otherwise it risks being "Seaside Special" in a rather fancy venue.

[Honoured Guest]

The Stranglers alternated with the London Sinfonietta http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/s...ugust-12/14714

The Proms has mutated into an orchestral concert series in the RAH, with everything else being diverted to the parallel chamber series.

The "popular" soloists now lead orchestral concerts. There's sound logic to it, just not what you'd prefer!

[teamsaint]

The Stranglers alternated with the London Sinfonietta http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/s...ugust-12/14714

The Proms has mutated into an orchestral concert series in the RAH, with everything else being diverted to the parallel chamber series.

The "popular" soloists now lead orchestral concerts. There's sound logic to it, just not what you'd prefer!

The logic is not artistic, in my view, it is marketing and box ticking driven.

Any old how, the Stranglers did play with the orchestra.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2aTl5ys1zkU

I dont think the series has gone the way you say, although it may have been dressed up that way for PR purposes.

I was at the World Prom last year. It seemed to me to be a good fit, in that people who were there for the Prokofiev stayed on to see something they wouldn't normally see live, whilst giving the musicians a chance to play in a different, perhaps challenging environment.Also, the concert didn't take up one of the mainstream slots, although of course it could have been used for other worthy artists.
No whiff of artifice , which is the thing that bothers me.

[Honoured Guest]

No World Prom this year - maybe because of the Commonwealth Games music event in Glasgow at the same time?

[teamsaint]

No World Prom this year - maybe because of the Commonwealth Games music event in Glasgow at the same time?

And scrapping "World Routes " on R3 a matter of weeks after the "World Routes Prom"?!

[gurnemanz]

Dusty Springfield sang with an orchestra. She was a pop singer, end of.I'm not sure if I would call her music "serious" or not, but it has stood the test of time.

Definitely not "end of", in my view, One definition of "pop" is that which does not stand the test of time, ephemeral and forgettable. What makes Dusty a mere pop singer? Are Nina Simone and Ella Fitzgerald proper singers? What about Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, Lucinda Williams, Emmylou Harris, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, June Tabor, Sandy Denny and many, many more? I enjoy them just as much as Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Janet Baker, Lotte Lehmann, Anne Sofie von Otter etc. I am not a particular fan of Dusty Springfiield but like many of her songs and she is a talented and appealing vocal stylist. I would add that some of Dusty's songs are certainly more "serious" than a lot of Schubert's Lieder output. I just like good songs which illuminate my life on a daily basis and am grateful that we have a whole spectrum of available styles.

[Honoured Guest]

And scrapping "World Routes " on R3 a matter of weeks after the "World Routes Prom"?!

Whoops! Hope Neil Tennant and Chris Lowe don't split up citing irreconcilable differences over their BBC Concert Orchestra gig.

[teamsaint]

Definitely not "end of", in my view, One definition of "pop" is that which does not stand the test of time, ephemeral and forgettable. What makes Dusty a mere pop singer? Are Nina Simone and Ella Fitzgerald proper singers? What about Joni Mitchell, Judy Collins, Lucinda Williams, Emmylou Harris, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, June Tabor, Sandy Denny and many, many more? I enjoy them just as much as Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Christa Ludwig, Janet Baker, Lotte Lehmann, Anne Sofie von Otter etc. I am not a particular fan of Dusty Springfiield but like many of her songs and she is a talented and appealing vocal stylist. I would add that some of Dusty's songs are certainly more "serious" than a lot of Schubert's Lieder output. I just like good songs which illuminate my life on a daily basis and am grateful that we have a whole spectrum of available styles.

Actually, I think we agree, I may not have expressed that well. All I meant was that, in terms of how I would describe her, she was a pop singer.That makes no difference to the quality of her output.labels arent always helpful.
I hold her singing and music in very high regard, along with many you mention, and others. And, to labour the point, a great singer doesnt have to have a great voice, IMO, though it usually helps.

I happen to think that Alex Harvey was a great singer, but that voice.......more grate than great .

[Mary Chambers]

Remember that BBC Magazines sold Radio Times to a private equity company nearly three years ago. The BBC no longer owns or manages the magazine. It's an independent, for-profit publication. Covers are designed to attract sales. Which classical composer or performer featured in this year's Proms do you propose for the cover who you'd expect to achieve more sales than Gareth Malone, who is in part a classical performer anyway?.

I confess I had forgotten that the Radio Times wasn't owned by the BBC any more, and I am far too unworldly to think in terms of sales.

I'd have thought most people who read it buy it every week, or have it delivered, as I do. I can't think a photo of Gareth Malone will cause a sudden rush in one-off sales.

[french frank]

Whoops! Hope Neil Tennant and Chris Lowe don't split up citing irreconcilable differences over their BBC Concert Orchestra gig.

So far, Paloma Faith 'sold out' but not the Pet Shop Boys. I don't know (sorry, Gongers!) what A Man from the Future is, but at 45 minutes long it may be too much for the fans ...

[MrGongGong]

So far, Paloma Faith 'sold out' but not the Pet Shop Boys. I don't know (sorry, Gongers!) what A Man from the Future is, but at 45 minutes long it may be too much for the fans ...

I guess that reinforces what Jayne was saying.

It is interesting how music moves from one "category" to another.
"Light Music" is now more or less firmly part of the classical music world.

[french frank]

It is interesting how music moves from one "category" to another.
"Light Music" is now more or less firmly part of the classical music world.

But only because certain programmers/ producers have an agenda which they are pursuing.

It reinforces the opinion that 'if it has an orchestra, it's classical music'. Or if it is performed by/ composed by a classical artist, it's classical music. It's firmly part of the crossover world.

[MrGongGong]

It reinforces the opinion that 'if it has an orchestra, it's classical music'. .

I think that is probably what most folks you meet would say
If you played someone who was unfamiliar a piece by Palestrina followed by a piece by Mahler followed by a piece by Xenakis they are likely to say that they are all "classical music".
What is, and what isn't "Classsical Music" changes (unless, of course, one means music from the "Classical Period").

Is all music with a singer and guitar "pop" music ?

I don't think that there's anything intrinsically wrong with "an agenda" as long as it doesn't exclude things which would otherwise be heard. So the absence of Haydn is no big deal really, but the total absence of pieces like Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony can only really find a home at festivals like the Proms.

What's the unique opportunity? would be one way of thinking about it.

(When a piece I wrote was featured in "Classical Music" magazine I got teased no end for joining the "establishment" )