Pop goes the weasel

[french frank]

ignorance of contemporary popular culture is sometimes (and i'm NOT referring to anyone in particular!) used as a badge to identify what "club" one belongs to.

That may be what an academic sociologist might come up with. Clichés. It's just that, on the whole, older people don't get to hear about, or hear, musicians whose work is played on places like Radio 1 or any of the other 'youth outlets' because they are, specifically, intended for young people whose 'musical interest' is based significantly on performers rather than music and on the latest releases by those performers rather than an historical canon (pace Sounds of the 70s on Radio 2).

'Identity badges' and 'clubs' are for teenagers. Contemporary popular music is for youngsters.

[MrGongGong]

'Identity badges' and 'clubs' are for teenagers. .

Tell that to the folks on the Choir Bored

I'm always puzzled by people who claim to be interested in MUSIC yet parade their ignorance of genres which they are unfamiliar with.
One doesn't have to buy into the whole nonsense of "pop" music being for youngsters and "serious" music being for those with more years behind them.
Many people who are passionate about Classical Music also have interests based significantly on performers. I think the Philharmonia did some research a few years ago about whether it was the Orchestra, The Composer, The Conductor or The Soloist that made people go to a particular concert. Look what happens when some opera superstar cancels a performance !

[french frank]

Tell that to the folks on the Choir Bored

It may be how you interpret people talking about a specialist area of music in which they are particularly interested. It may even be that mentioning your personal list of composers not featured at this year's Proms was intended as your personal 'badge of cultural identity', of the club to which you wish to be seen to belong. It may be that this is what the BBC calls 'communities of interest': the interest comes first, the communities build round it.

I'm always puzzled by people who claim to be interested in MUSIC yet parade their ignorance of genres which they are unfamiliar with.

Many people never use 'music' in that all embracing way which considers it some an entity, and that they are interested in it all. They like some, they don't like others, and it's natural to take little interest in music that doesn't appeal. When did you last listen to The Dream of Gerontius? 'Music' for the average young person does not include anything classical, for example. They aren't accused of 'parading their ignorance'. They are just ignorant. As many of us are of popular music.

One doesn't have to buy into the whole nonsense of "pop" music being for youngsters and "serious" music being for those with more years behind them.

No, I don't for one. And I said something different. I mentioned the music played on Radio 1, that is, contemporary pop music, what is being produced now, day in, day out. That is for young people. There's a lot of it and you can hear it on any of the radio stations catering for that demographic. It isn't played on Radio 2, for example, which is for an older demographic. Don't know what you intend by the phrase '"serious" music'.

Many people who are passionate about Classical Music also have interests based significantly on performers. I think the Philharmonia did some research a few years ago about whether it was the Orchestra, The Composer, The Conductor or The Soloist that made people go to a particular concert. Look what happens when some opera superstar cancels a performance !

I don't know many people who would buy a record because it's the latest release by the Vienna Phil. And compilation discs by the stars come some way down the list of 'must-haves' for classical music enthusiasts.

[teamsaint]

Parading one's "ignorance", for want of a better expression, if done in a sensible way, might be a good thing, as parading one's " knowledge" inappropriately might be a bad thing.

I simply don't have the time, to keep up with areas of rock/pop/world/folk in the way that I might like to, because of musical and other choices that I make.
I may at times demonstrate or recognise my ignorance, because it may help me to access other peoples knowledge, experience, or expertise.
It ain't what you do......

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm always puzzled by people who claim to be interested in MUSIC yet parade their ignorance of genres which they are unfamiliar with.

Oh, do you mean the dimwitted Radio 3 guests who boast about knowing very little about classical music? Actually, they are not really dimwitted, but inviting them on to the programme may well be.

[french frank]

I'm a bit slow following a hearty lunch, so I'm finding the schedule a bit hard to decipher.

"Particular highlights include the CBeebies Prom, Late Night with … Paloma Faith, and Marin Alsop conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra playing John Adams’ Short Ride in a Fast Machine." I can't see where the CBeebies Prom is going to be televised ... And apart from the FN and LN, I can only spot three other live events (including a particular highlight: Paloma Faith). NB The Adams is one of the 'Ten Pieces' for the primary school event.

"Thursday Proms will explore classical masterworks with Tom Service, Friday Proms will feature popular classical highlights and Sunday Proms will be presented by Katie Derham and look at Proms firsts including artists, music and events."

As far as I can see, most of the BBC Four Proms will be deferred broadcasts, and 'highlights' seems to mean 'with the new pieces edited out' (as last year).

[Mary Chambers]

Sadly I think comments like this (with all due respect to Mary) don't do anyone any favours at all.
What on earth does a "Classical" musician look like anyway ?

Yesterday I was at a rehearsal at the Wigmore hall, many of the people there didn't look like "classical musicians" either.
Sitting in the green room with a group of students they were asking WHO were all the people in the photographs on the walls ?

You can't criticise "pop" music for being image obsessed then make out that "Classical Musicians" somehow don't have images created for them.

I think you're reading far too much into my comment. She was not someone I recognised, and I think if any 'classical' solo musician had an image like the photo there would have been plenty of publicity about it, and I would know.

[Honoured Guest]

The Radio Times guide is also very clear about tv broadcasts during the Prom season.

A pity that it doesn't give dates for the R3 repeats, which was included in last year's RT guide.

The CBeebies Prom will be shown on CBeebies (quelle surprise!) later this year. I guess it may be on a public holiday, or a Sunday, but I have no knowledge.

[Honoured Guest]

'Dumbing down' may be a clumsy term, but that is w!hat's happening. I too am shocked by the covers of Radio Times, and particularly of the Proms supplement ('essential pull-out guide') inside it, with its picture of Paloma Faith.

I'm trying to work out what exactly you meant by this comment, without reading too much into it! Obviously, photos on the cover of a magazine and a pull-out guide can have no bearing on the quality of the concerts or broadcasts. So, am I right to assume that you can only have meant that the two covers were "dumbed down"? If so, that's extremely trivial. Is it really "shocking" that a general tv listings magazine tries to draw its readers' attention with a photo of Gareth Malone, the artist most familiar to tv viewers? Or that the pull-out guide features the other popular performers prominently, along with five unknowns, Janine Jansen, Inger-Dam Jensen, Riccardo ('armless) Chailly, Christina Landshamer and Vittorio Grigolo?

[MrGongGong]

Oh, do you mean the dimwitted Radio 3 guests who boast about knowing very little about classical music? Actually, they are not really dimwitted, but inviting them on to the programme may well be.

Actually I mean

BOTH

Those folks who do the "Metallica ? Never heard of them"
and those in other musical worlds who I meet and say things like
"Bruckner ? never heard of him"

The problem with these kind of statements (from BOTH and other places !) is that the implication is that it's not worth bothering finding out about other musics because what I like is obviously "better".

Its a great shame that there isn't more adventurous programming at the Proms there are (as i'm sure Beef, Jayne et al would tell us) some wonderfully interesting and innovative things going on in "popular" musics.

(and I did listen to some of DOG last time it was on at the Proms , mainly to see some friends in the orchestra and choir though I wish it had been something else BUT that's what one does from time to time !)

[french frank]

The problem with these kind of statements (from BOTH and other places !) is that the implication is that it's not worth bothering finding out about other musics because what I like is obviously "better".

The problem as I see it, however, is that you have chosen, wilfully, to put your own interpretation on the words and are wrong. If I say "Metallica ? Never heard of them" I mean what I have just said. Not what you have chosen to put into my brain and mouth. You are inferring, I am not implying.

For most people who like classical music, the chances are that they do hear contemporary popular music somewhere or other. But you have to be some sort of LUNATIC to say: "I don't think I like this very much - I'll keep on listening to it and then perhaps I will like it."

[MrGongGong]

The problem as I see it, however, is that you have chosen, wilfully, to put your own interpretation on the words and are wrong. If I say "Metallica ? Never heard of them" I mean what I have just said. Not what you have chosen to put into my brain and mouth. You are inferring, I am not implying.
"

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying
(probably because i'm not being very articulate!)

My point is that many people (and it's NOT personally directed) will use the phrase "never heard of" AND imply that because they haven't it's not worthy of attention.
People in here often complain about things like folks on University Challenge "never heard of" Mahler as if that's somehow a shocking thing (actually IMV being educated means that one should learn about all sorts of stuff) and at the same time do the "never heard of Metallica" thing which to me is more or less the same thing.

I think the problem is one of language.
I seem to remember a "discussion" about this years ago when someone was claiming NEVER to have heard the playing of Robert Fripp.
Now i'm no Philosopher BUT recognising a SOUND and giving it a NAME aren't necessarily the same thing at all.
More or less everyone i've worked with knows the SOUND of a diminished chord, they might call it something different (like the Jazz guitarist on my degree course who had a rather nifty way of describing the "Tristan" chord) but they recognise it when they hear it.

[french frank]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying
(probably because i'm not being very articulate!)

You are sentenced to six months on the Pedants thread. That'll teach you.

Where I would see the opposite perspective: 'people' seem to find it incomprehensible that others know absolutely nothing of areas of knowledge which, to them, seem like every day currency which 'everyone must know'. And it's somehow the fault of the ignorant that they don't know. And, furthermore, they ought to do something to remedy this situation. It doesn't seem at all surprising to me that undergraduates, even Oxbridge undergraduates, have not the remotest clue about classical music or classical musicians. It's more surprising if they HAVE, because where would they hear classical music? Just as where would other older people hear current popular music or musicians?

Even if some hardy souls venture over to YouTube to have a look round, it doesn't mean they want to spend time becoming experts. And that in turn doesn't mean they necessarily have any opinion about the music. Even if people say, What on earth are The Pet Shop Boys and Paloma Faith doing at the Proms, it's a comment on the insidious spread of popular music/culture into every corner of life.

If you put Rufus Wainwright on at the Proms, all his fans will become classical music fans. Hooray! But that isn't what happens.

[Mary Chambers]

Is it really "shocking" that a general tv listings magazine tries to draw its readers' attention with a photo of Gareth Malone, the artist most familiar to tv viewers? Or that the pull-out guide features the other popular performers prominently, along with five unknowns, Janine Jansen, Inger-Dam Jensen, Riccardo ('armless) Chailly, Christina Landshamer and Vittorio Grigolo?

I am referring partly to the covers, yes. I'm led to believe that the Prom season is one of 'classical' concerts, so why not have a composer or performer of that sort of music on the cover? The non-specialist TV audience can only become familiar with what it is shown. I think the emphasis is wrong.

(I'm also not in favour of having pop music in the Proms. I know some of you are, but please allow me not to be. Perhaps it's in order to pay for the rest - I don't know.)

[Honoured Guest]

Remember that BBC Magazines sold Radio Times to a private equity company nearly three years ago. The BBC no longer owns or manages the magazine. It's an independent, for-profit publication. Covers are designed to attract sales. Which classical composer or performer featured in this year's Proms do you propose for the cover who you'd expect to achieve more sales than Gareth Malone, who is in part a classical performer anyway?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14548951

It's misleading to say there's any pop music in this year's Proms. These concerts all feature popular soloists performing with orchestras. I suppose you could categorise some as light music, which has always featured in the Proms, but that doesn't really fit well because much of their music is actually quite serious in its genre.