Chailly cancels Proms

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This was about Chailly and/or Gilbert but has got trashed somewhere. By all means start a new thread if you want to chat about Anita Bruckner

You'd prefer yet another one on Norman Mahler?!

[Zucchini]

[cloughie]

You'd prefer yet another one on Norman Mahler?!

Wasn't it Paul Simon who complained about him?

[Petrushka]

Threads have a way of meandering off course and, as the one who started this one I don't mind at all when it's produced an excellent and thoughtful post from JLW that has me thinking again and questioning long held beliefs.

I have some of the older (pre-Karajan) Bruckner discs mentioned including the Böhm 1943 and Knappertsbusch 1949 7th as well as Furtwängler's 4th, 5th 8th and 9th. However, it is Karajan, Haitink and Wand to whom I turn from choice in Bruckner above all others. Mind, expecting the Abbado Bruckner 9 any day now...

[Colonel Danby]

Really sad news about Chailly cancelling his Proms dates as I've always rated him highly: I hope that he gets better soon. Fortunately I did see him conduct Mahler 3 in Leipzig with the Gewandhaus Orchestra, and the gorgeous Petra Lang a couple of years ago, so I suppose that is some compensation.

[P. G. Tipps]

This was about Chailly and/or Gilbert but has got trashed somewhere. By all means start a new thread if you want to chat about Anita Bruckner

.

In a slightly similar vein, and at the risk of annoying devoted Chaillians and Gilbertians further, I did find this rather more encouraging piece of PR about A. Bruckner on Wiki recently.

<Bruckner enjoys hip-hop and R&B as well as The Killers and The Fray.>

So there!

Sorry ... back to R. Chailly!

[amateur51]

I wish I could do "housework in the TS Eliot sense"... it's all too literal here!

...To the excellent examples you mention one might add Kna's 4 & 7 from 8/9/44 and 30/8/49 respectively... taking an hour over the 7th was once more "traditional", v. Haitink in Amsterdam, live and studio.
Andreae seems so significant because he's at the heart of an earlier Viennese tradition, but one which didn't quite make it through to the Stereo era of The Great Conductors etc... it says a lot that I'm prepared to spend time with Venzago despite his choice of editions. Rob Cowan understands his aims very well, but Philip Clark ?
The Venzago 8th is due out in a few days, I see Hurwitz has already used the phrase "nutcase conductors" in his review... I don't think I'll pay the $49 to read it in full...

CD pre-ordered... I'm hoping to be, like, totally outraged...

Looking foward to your review in due course jlw


I recall a studio Bruckner symphony no 5 by Kna that was quite nifty too

[HighlandDougie]

AS long ago as 1953 Volkmar Andreae (with the VSO) showed there is another approach - leaner, swifter, perhaps cooler but not inexpressive -

One of my favourite Bruckner 7ths - the young Jascha Horenstein with the Berlin Philharmonic - clocks in at under 59". It dates from 1928 so I'm not sure that marmoreal Bruckner à la Barenboim was the norm in the 1920s. Quite where the idea that Bruckner's music gains from being played slowly came from is a mystery to me. Did Karajan start a trend with his 1957 8th with the Berlin Philharmonic for Columbia (almost 5 minutes slower than his later performances on record)? Is this where the rot set in?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The 1928 Horenstein is available at quite reasonable prices:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-No-Horenstein-Berlin-Po/dp/3898162621/ref=sr_1_cc_2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1404855970&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=bruckner+7%2C+horenstein

... I've never heard it, and my first reaction to the timing was to wonder if there were cuts, but the Amazon reviewer suggests not.

Oscar Fried's pioneering recording of the Seventh from 1924 (under 57 minutes!) is also available as an MP3 for £7.49:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Weber-C-M-Von-Mascagni/dp/B005LRSCH0/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1404856291&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=bruckner+7%2C+fried

[richardfinegold]

One of my favourite Bruckner 7ths - the young Jascha Horenstein with the Berlin Philharmonic - clocks in at under 59". It dates from 1928 so I'm not sure that marmoreal Bruckner à la Barenboim was the norm in the 1920s. Quite where the idea that Bruckner's music gains from being played slowly came from is a mystery to me. Did Karajan start a trend with his 1957 8th with the Berlin Philharmonic for Columbia (almost 5 minutes slower than his later performances on record)? Is this where the rot set in?

I read a quote where Horenstein later disowned that recording, stating he was way to young then to understand the Composer.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I read a quote where Horenstein later disowned that recording, stating he was way to young then to understand the Composer.

Interesting - you don't have a link to this quotation, do you, rfg?

It's nevertheless still significant that Horenstein followed what seems (it's difficult to determine this with such scant recorded evidence) to be the way that Bruckner was performed in the 1920s - Fried was in his 50s when he recorded the Seventh (arguably "way too young to understand" Bruckner - but then this is also true at 90) and the memories of Bruckner's own performances (some of which are collected in Stephen Johnson's Bruckner Remembered, and there's further discussion of this in The Cambridge Companion to Bruckner, Julian Horton's Bruckner Symphonies: Analysis, Reception and Cultural Politics and Benjamin Korstvedt's monogram on the Eighth Symphony).

The question is, whatever Horenstein's later opinion (and elderly conductors often take a Saturnian approach to their younger selves, - Bernstein in the '80s made rather negative comments about his '60s recordings of Beethoven and Mahler) - this seems to be the way Bruckner was performed before these young conductors like Karajan with their new-fangled ideas got their hands on the works.

(Incidentally, I find this discussion far more interesting than Mr Chailly's cancellations, or the merits of Mr Gilbert - but perhaps it might be moved to a separate "Bruckner Interpretation" Thread?)

[Ferretfancy]

Considering there are another six Mahler symphonies scheduled this year it might have been nice if the programme had been changed as well as the conductor? Why is there always so much of this composer, year after year after year?

If poor old Bruckner can be totally ignored twice in recent years what's the problem in occasionally doing the same with the seemingly now wall-to-wall Mahler?

I would seem that you can't just be a Mahlerite, but a Mahlerite only for specific conductors. Of course this means that officionados can still argue about what X or Y did at letter B without the need to give lesser known interpreters a chance.

I would like to see a moratorium on Mahler for a few years ( That would see me out! )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I would like to see a moratorium on Mahler for a few years ( That would see me out! )

You've more chance of winning the Lottery seven times in a row (I bet you'd like to see that, too ) - and quite rightly: Mahler's Music is better than any of the wonderful performances it has received from its various performers on record and in concert, and will continue to be one of the pinnacles of the human imagination for a helluva lot more than "a few years", attracting and challenging performers and listeners. Those who don't like it will just have to do what I do with Rimsky's Scheherazade, or Ravel's orchestral reduction of Mussorgsky's Pictures - just leave it for those who do and listen to something more to their tastes: there's a lot of other stuff out there.

[richardfinegold]

Interesting - you don't have a link to this quotation, do you, rfg?

It's nevertheless still significant that Horenstein followed what seems (it's difficult to determine this with such scant recorded evidence) to be the way that Bruckner was performed in the 1920s - Fried was in his 50s when he recorded the Seventh (arguably "way too young to understand" Bruckner - but then this is also true at 90) and the memories of Bruckner's own performances (some of which are collected in Stephen Johnson's Bruckner Remembered, and there's further discussion of this in The Cambridge Companion to Bruckner, Julian Horton's Bruckner Symphonies: Analysis, Reception and Cultural Politics and Benjamin Korstvedt's monogram on the Eighth Symphony).

The question is, whatever Horenstein's later opinion (and elderly conductors often take a Saturnian approach to their younger selves, - Bernstein in the '80s made rather negative comments about his '60s recordings of Beethoven and Mahler) - this seems to be the way Bruckner was performed before these young conductors like Karajan with their new-fangled ideas got their hands on the works.

(Incidentally, I find this discussion far more interesting than Mr Chailly's cancellations, or the merits of Mr Gilbert - but perhaps it might be moved to a separate "Bruckner Interpretation" Thread?)

I just did a quick search and couldn't find it. I believe I read the quote in an article on the history of Bruckner recordings, or possibly in an article about Horenstein. The quote struck me because the 1928 7th is considered to be so iconic.
I agree that Conductors tend to look back on previous recordings with a Saturn like disdain. Thus the tendency to re record the same repetoire.

[P. G. Tipps]

I agree that nobody has to listen to Mahler and of course his very popularity ensures his rightful place in any Proms schedule. That's how it should be.

However, in common with every other composer, this popularity is not entirely universal. Other composers can claim at least a fair degree of popularity without their fans enjoying anywhere near a permanent annual feast to that of Gustav the Great's.

Here's an interesting link though admittedly it might be immediately dismissed by some as somewhat subjective on the part of the compiler(s)

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-comp.html

Still, it does indicate that other composers might on occasion be featured rather more at the Proms, though it does seem that there was little problem in finding some spare room for the Pet Shop Boys if not as much as a Bruckner Motet?