Prom 74 - 6.09.13: Vienna Philharmonic

[LaurieWatt]

Well, for me it was VPO and Bruckner 8, so 2 out of 3. I'd rather it had been Haitink, but....

Saw him a few times in the 70s in London, including that infamous Mahler 2 discussed recently. More recently in Cardiff with, er, the VPO....

Richard, could you please direct me to that thread on the 1970's Mahler 2.

I share the general views about Lorin Maazel expressed in this thread but would only note that he is like the old depiction of little girls. When he is good he is very very good but when he is bad (which is much of the time these days) he is horrid! It is the old narcissus problem, is it not?

[Richard Tarleton]

Richard, could you please direct me to that thread on the 1970's Mahler 2.

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?8504-Letter-to-Lorin-Maazel-from-Terry-Johns&p=301334#post301334

It started with Terry Johns' memoirs (#1). I was at the concert in question (#3).

[LaurieWatt]

Thank you!
L

[Ferretfancy]

He used to be so good when he was younger, but things have gone awry now. The capacity for nasty insult seems to have grown with the internet.

When Maazel conducted the NYPO at the Proms a few years ago he even managed to make The Miraculous Mandarin seem dull. The playing was polished but there was simply no excitement. Mind you, Zubin Mehta and the VPO managed the same effect in the Rite of Spring!

[cloughie]

He used to be so good when he was younger, but things have gone awry now. The capacity for nasty insult seems to have grown with the internet.

When Maazel conducted the NYPO at the Proms a few years ago he even managed to make The Miraculous Mandarin seem dull. The playing was polished but there was simply no excitement. Mind you, Zubin Mehta and the VPO managed the same effect in the Rite of Spring!

On these boards it has become fashionable to knock certain conductors - Maazel and Mehta seem to be favourites for this treatment. I suspect that there are those who have already decided well in advance that they are not going to like their performances but have already awarded 5* to Haitink's next performance. On the question of the Rite of Spring Mehta's LAPO recording from years ago was as exciting as any around but I'm not sure the VPO is the ideal orchestra in this work any more than the HIPP Orchestra was in this year's Proms - let's listen before we judge.

[Richard Tarleton]

I suspect that there are those who have already decided well in advance that they are not going to like their performances but have already awarded 5* to Haitink's next performance.

Well only half right in my case cloughie - I'm greatly looking forward to the VPO/Maazel Bruckner 8 (it's the only Prom for which I'm making the journey from W Wales, I was too slow for the all-Dowland concert).

(My last Proms Bruckner 8 was conducted by, er, Haitink )

[Petrushka]

On these boards it has become fashionable to knock certain conductors - Maazel and Mehta seem to be favourites for this treatment. I suspect that there are those who have already decided well in advance that they are not going to like their performances but have already awarded 5* to Haitink's next performance. On the question of the Rite of Spring Mehta's LAPO recording from years ago was as exciting as any around but I'm not sure the VPO is the ideal orchestra in this work any more than the HIPP Orchestra was in this year's Proms - let's listen before we judge.

I too shall be at the VPO/Maazel Prom and look forward to it. The VPO in Bruckner is not to be missed.

I was present at the Mehta/VPO Rite of Spring and through no fault of Mehta's it really wasn't the VPO's thing. They sounded much happier in the first half (Haydn and Berg) as well as the Strauss encore. In my view, Zubin Mehta is an undervalued conductor who gets taken for granted and it's unfair to bracket him with Lorin Maazel on grounds that both are flashy showman with no depth.

I was also present at Maazel's NYPO Proms and I'm afraid the derision poured on to those concerts was mostly justified and while I approach the VPO Prom with some trepidation I am confident that they would not have chosen to give this concert with him if they thought he was not up to the task. We shall see on September 6...

[Ferretfancy]

On these boards it has become fashionable to knock certain conductors - Maazel and Mehta seem to be favourites for this treatment. I suspect that there are those who have already decided well in advance that they are not going to like their performances but have already awarded 5* to Haitink's next performance. On the question of the Rite of Spring Mehta's LAPO recording from years ago was as exciting as any around but I'm not sure the VPO is the ideal orchestra in this work any more than the HIPP Orchestra was in this year's Proms - let's listen before we judge.

Fairly put cloughie, but in the case of the VPO and Mehta I did listen before I judged. I'm certainly not trying to knock him down, I have heard him conduct fine performances, but this was not one of them

[DublinJimbo]

Whatever about being put off by the idea of Lorin Maazel at the helm of the VPO, what about when they turned up with Bobbie McFerrin in 2003? (BMcF was soloist as well as conductor, providing a vocalised contribution to a Vivaldi concerto for two cellos and some solo improvisations.)

They brought the same programme to the National Concert Hall in Dublin afterwards. I refused to attend, despite the rarity of a visit by the Vienna Phil, considering it as an insult to visit here with such a conductor. A friend who went was full of praise, but I nodded knowingly and refused to credit the possibility of its being worth while.

[Petrushka]

Whatever about being out off by the idea of Lorin Maazel at the helm of the VPO, what about when they turned up with Bobbie McFerrin in 2003? (BMcF was soloist as well as conductor, providing a vocalised contribution to a Vivaldi concerto for two cellos and some solo improvisations.)

They brought the same programme to the National Concert Hall in Dublin afterwards. I refused to attend, despite the rarity of a visit by the Vienna Phil, considering it as an insult to visit here with such a conductor. A friend who went was full of praise, but I nodded knowingly and refused to credit the possibility of its being worth while.

I refused to attend that Prom for the same reason and I've been to every other VPO Prom bar that one. It garnered some good reviews if I remember correctly but it's not what I want to hear from the VPO.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I was present at the Mehta/VPO Rite of Spring and through no fault of Mehta's it really wasn't the VPO's thing. They sounded much happier in the first half (Haydn and Berg) as well as the Strauss encore.

I attended this same concert on the previous day at The Sage in Gateshead, and it was truly magnificent, better than the repeat at the Proms. But the venue is better than the RAH in all but atmosphere, so that could have been a factor too.

[BBMmk2]

That concert he gave, that was on tv, Verdi and Wagner, was absolutely disastrous, too, imo. Hmmm, may give this a miss, this time.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Two threads merged here.

[Alison]

My guess is that with such low expectations many of us will be in for a pleasant surprise with this Bruckner 8. We may well come to miss these ageing maestros when they are no longer around.

[Sir Velo]

Lorin Maazel may not be many people's first choice conductor, but to compare him to "dogshit" - easy to spit such bile out in the comfort of cyberspace, but would they say that to his face, I wonder?

Probably not, but they're thinking it. I agree that it's an unpleasant analogy, but do we want critics to be mealy-mouthed? If you put yourself in the public eye, and have a reputation for doing some slightly unpleasant things to people, you have to accept some of the consequences.

There's no question that Maazel is an arrogant man (one only has to read a few anecdotes from musicians, or listen to his Desert Island Discs appearance to appreciate this). Does this make him a bad musician? No, absolutely not. In the right repertoire: Stravinsky; Tchaikovsky; Sibelius; Ravel he's a master of bending an orchestra to his will. Tellingly, he once remarked that he did not permit discussion from orchestral members as to interpretation. "You have one man at the helm; I'm the man" or words to that effect.