Prom 72 - 5.09.13: Verdi & Tchaikovsky

[Hornspieler]

That was a cracking performance of Manfred .

I hope you didn't mean that literally. The horn section would be most upset.

Anyway, edashtav will be delighted because they played "The Lone Ranger" as an encore, taking him back to his schooldays in Bournemouth.

Good night all,

HS

[Nick Armstrong]

Anyway, edashtav will be delighted because they played "The Lone Ranger" as an encore, taking him back to his schooldays in Bournemouth.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

very good standard of playing in the Manfred, which to me was always PT best Symphony.

- with the possible exception of the Pathetique.

[edashtav]

Anyway, edashtav will be delighted because they played "The Lone Ranger" as an encore, taking him back to his schooldays in Bournemouth.

HS

Oh Damn - missed it - I was practising Bach with my choir.

[jean]

...I've played for several lady conductors (conductresses?)...

I always thought conductresses were confined to buses, but just this evening I happened upon a programme from the Liverpool Welsh Choral Union's 1912-13 season, and I discover that for their performance of Granville Bantock's Atalanta in Calydon they were joined by the Gitana Ladies' Choir, Conductress - Madame Maggie Evans.

[marvin]

Thoroughly enjoying this slightly unconventional Manfred.

Unconventional, you are joking! The tempi in the second movement also resulted in it coming almost to a halt at times - far to slow and laboured. Nevertheless it was interesting to hear it played in this way but not a pleasurable experience. At least there were no surprise intrusions from the RAH organ this time.

[Hornspieler]

I thought that the performance of Manfred went very well, except for the BBC engineers insistence on dumbing down the sound. The mix is really quite boring. I listen to the sound through some very heavy duty equipment, but it does not help. Every time the Horns had an important tutti the sound seemed to just drop a couple of decibels. The microphone for the trombones seemed to be permanently turned down ....
.

Good morning slarty.

Important tutti? A bit of an oxymoron there, I fancy, but I take your point about the engineers' balance antics.

If only they would go back to a main stereo pair, ten meters back from the platform and a 'space pair' for ambience further back and higher, to give us what we would hear if we were actually present.

It used to work in the old days, so why complicate the exercise? We only have two ears so why do we need a dozen microphones?

Perhaps Ferret might explain the current thinking?
HS

[amac4165]

Unconventional, you are joking! The tempi in the second movement also resulted in it coming almost to a halt at times - far to slow and laboured. Nevertheless it was interesting to hear it played in this way but not a pleasurable experience. At least there were no surprise intrusions from the RAH organ this time.

Overall a bit of a dud in the hall - the first half "bitty" and never really got going, the briefest and almost pointless excerpt from Aida and just about summed it up.

Manfred sounded top heavy, slow and labored and did not really seem to be a piece that was their usual repertory

[marvin]

Overall a bit of a dud in the hall - the first half "bitty" and never really got going, the briefest and almost pointless excerpt from Aida and just about summed it up.

Manfred sounded top heavy, slow and labored and did not really seem to be a piece that was their usual repertory

I of course meant 'too slow'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I always thought conductresses were confined to buses, but just this evening I happened upon a programme from the Liverpool Welsh Choral Union's 1912-13 season, and I discover that for their performance of Granville Bantock's Atalanta in Calydon they were joined by the Gitana Ladies' Choir, Conductress - Madame Maggie Evans.

Careful, jean - they'll be being called "clippies" if we're not careful.

[amateur51]

Careful, jean - they'll be being called "clippies" if we're not careful.

[slarty]

Good morning slarty.

Important tutti? A bit of an oxymoron there, I fancy, but I take your point about the engineers' balance antics.

If only they would go back to a main stereo pair, ten meters back from the platform and a 'space pair' for ambience further back and higher, to give us what we would hear if we were actually present.

It used to work in the old days, so why complicate the exercise? We only have two ears so why do we need a dozen microphones?

Perhaps Ferret might explain the current thinking?
HS

Good Morning Hornspieler, It was late when I wrote that and only another musician would pick up on what I meant. I don't have a score so I can't pin point the bar no, but the particular tutti I meant was in the 4th mvmt where the 4 horns are all in unison playing ff or fff (lower middle register) which went for nothing because, as you say, they don't seem to use ambient microphones. It is such a tremendously dramatic passage, that many conductors don't bring it off too well, and if it does not come across well then the build up to the Organ's opening chord is left rather flabby, as last night. (the organ sounded completely underwhelming as well, and after his two opening phrases he disappeared completely). I fancy that BBC TV sound engineering is aimed at the lowest common denominator, so that it will sound ok on even small portables or in today's language - ipads.
As much as I am ambivalent to tonight's VPO conductor, he, and his marvellous viennese horns made, for me, what is still the best recording of the work. Sofiensaal recording of course, with that great Decca team.
My favourite LP of it was Previn's with the LSO.
Last night was the first time I had listened to it for a long time and I enjoyed the performance, It is a tough symphony to bring off well.

[Ferretfancy]

Good morning slarty.

Important tutti? A bit of an oxymoron there, I fancy, but I take your point about the engineers' balance antics.

If only they would go back to a main stereo pair, ten meters back from the platform and a 'space pair' for ambience further back and higher, to give us what we would hear if we were actually present.

It used to work in the old days, so why complicate the exercise? We only have two ears so why do we need a dozen microphones?

Perhaps Ferret might explain the current thinking?
HS

Unfortunately the old days are no longer with us! The point is that the BBC no longer use their established engineers, like most other things it has been farmed out to contractors who have a different approach. Thus the reservoir of experience gained in earlier days has been lost.

I share marvin's view that Manfred was a bit of a disaster, to put it kindly. I think this was never more than a mediocre performance of a work that can sound superb.
Ms Xhang seemed a very direct and precise conductor, but most of the time the orchestra simply did not respond, and the result was a series of disconnected episodes, even the entry of the organ failed to impress. I asked others in the hall, and found few enthusiasts, notwithstanding the fact that there were roars of applause after each movement.

The late concert of Schubert sonatas with Imogen Cooper and Paul Lewis was quite another matter, wonderful playing co-ordinated perfectly. These are both long works to stand through after standing for the earlier concert, but I was riveted at my last Prom of the year.

[slarty]

The orchestra last night was very disinterested, the looks on many of their faces during the Manfred told all. Now whether that is a combined dislike for the work or a dislike for their chief conductor, only time will tell. But, and I am sure Hornspieler will back me up on this, when the orchestra begins to play like this and look they way they do, then the conductor's days are numbered. She worked very hard, but for limited results. Unfortunately, I could only watch it on the box, so derived a totally different view of the whole thing, One needed to be in the hall. The planning of the first half was terrible. Why bother with such a truncated grand march from Aida at all?
The audience never really seemed to get going with the arias, until it was too late. Try as they ultimately did, no encore was forthcoming.

[Hornspieler]

Good Morning Hornspieler, It was late when I wrote that and only another musician would pick up on what I meant. I don't have a score so I can't pin point the bar no, but the particular tutti I meant was in the 4th mvmt where the 4 horns are all in unison playing ff or fff (lower middle register) which went for nothing because, as you say, they don't seem to use ambient microphones. It is such a tremendously dramatic passage, that many conductors don't bring it off too well, and if it does not come across well then the build up to the Organ's opening chord is left rather flabby, as last night. (the organ sounded completely underwhelming as well, and after his two opening phrases he disappeared completely). I fancy that BBC TV sound engineering is aimed at the lowest common denominator, so that it will sound ok on even small portables or in today's language - ipads.......

........Last night was the first time I had listened to it for a long time and I enjoyed the performance, It is a tough symphony to bring off well.

In my message #15, addressed to Alison, I mentioned that I had played Manfred many times under Silvestri. I have a recording of Silvestri's approach, conducting the Bournemouth orchestra among several other recordings and I regard it as possessing a certain uniqueness of vision, so I do not attempt to judge other performances by what my own experiences of playing the work influence me.

Overall, I enjoyed the performance. Yes, there were flaws in the execution, but it is possibly Tchaikowsky's most difficult example of symphonic writing, particularly for the woodwind. Yes, the woodwind, flutes in particular, were in a bit of a flutter. The horn playing was, to me, indifferent to the possibilities of a bit more emphasis here and there leaning on the notes. It's not a matter of volume or balance; it's all about projection.

There were places where the conductor did appear to lose control and could be seen vigorously trying to re-establish contact with the nether regions of the orchestra, but I admired the string playing throughout and I'm sure that a first time listener would have been impressed by the piece although perhaps not aware of its shortcomings. (and here I mean the work itself and not just its execution).

I suggest that if you try listening again on the iPlayer, you might find something which did impress (like that very fine timp playing, for instance, which held things together in places).

Hornspieler