Prom 71 - 4.09.13: Górecki, Vaughan Williams & Tchaikovsky

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't think I've ever heard the last two movements of the Tchaikovsky quite so attacca, but I cannot blame the conductor in this instance.

[Exonian]

Devastatingly intense Pathetique... after that, I'm just unable to comment on any quality of detail or interpretation...

But tonight we heard two tragic symphonies. Narratives of suffering, both with Moments of Reprieve. One ends with the soft, dark glow of maternal love-in-death and the radiance of the Queen of Heaven; the other in stark and desolate tragedy.
Gorecki's 3rd speaks from a culture, a religion, a history, as part of the fabric of folk-memory. Tchaikovsky's 6th, like that of Mahler, feels more like notes for (or from) an autobiography.

Yet for me, both achieve the greatness of a universal statement; and especially at a time of such hatreds, the deliberate affliction of war, oppression and suffering of minorities, peoples and ethnic groups, both relate intensely to the broader experience of the human condition.

'Narratives of suffering' is a quite brilliant turn of phrase. The Gorecki is something I believe to be a great piece - not a work I warmed to immediately - but I think now surely a deliberate, precise and slow-moving work of little key or tempo change. A lovely use of scale and a creation of a mood an atmosphere that evokes loss, yearning and suffering in a very specific way. And its use of text a superb marriage. One does not need to know European history in detail to understand the resonance of the work. Such music is often criticised for its immediacy and its ability to communicate beyond the narrow confines of 'classical music' - similar things were said about Tavener's 'The Protecting Veil'. Some equate a certain difficulty or obtuseness in a work to define its real or potential greatness. Surely a curious thing.

Great post Jayne - I think you have written universal truths yourself.

[edashtav]

{...]

I felt Ruby Hughes' voice loomed a little too large and vibrantly operatic for the piece, at least as relayed on HDs. Personally I would prefer a smaller, purer, more distanced tonal character - especially in such a large acoustic. So it was a little harder than it should be to sink into its bleakly consoling evocations.

After this performance, I looked through my score to try to establish why I was a little unhappy. Firstly , I agreed with your observation, Jayne, about the over-earthy and too closely miked timbre of Ruby Hughes' voice, as it came over on fm. But before that I was less than gripped by the long orchestral canon in the first movement. The score gave me a clue: Gorecki's music is a devoid of interpretative assistance as are many of Bruckner's movements. I noticed an absence: long brackets to indicate, perhaps, legato phrasing. Quavers are tied but there are no longer spans. I found the BBC SO were a little too legato , robbing the music of a little of its majesty and power. It was a decent performance and acted for me as a memorial to the short, bright-eyed composer whom I sat close to at a dynamic Sinfonietta performance of his Harpsichord Concerto with Elzbieta Chojnacha as soloist. I shall not forget Henryk with his close-cropped salt and pepper hair and his ginger-brown suit that recalled my grandfather's style. He was on good form that evening and the sole outward sign of his poor health was his limp. Gorecki remains an enigma for me as he composed in many styles. Sometimes I want to stand and ask,"will the real Mr Gorecki identify himself, please."

Anthony Payne's RVW orchestration seemed to me to be a labour of love. As somebody else has remarked, I'm happy to settle for Vaughan Williams's originals with their piano accompaniment.
I'm afraid I missed the Tchaikovsky.

[Exonian]

After this performance, I looked through my score to try to establish why I was a little unhappy. Firstly , I agreed with your observation, Jayne, about the over-earthy and too closely miked timbre of Ruby Hughes' voice, as it came over on fm. But before that I was less than gripped by the long orchestral canon in the first movement. The score gave me a clue: Gorecki's music is a devoid of interpretative assistance as are many of Bruckner's movements. I noticed an absence: long brackets to indicate, perhaps, legato phrasing. Quavers are tied but there are no longer spans. I found the BBC SO were a little too legato , robbing the music of a little of its majesty and power. It was a decent performance and acted for me as a memorial to the short, bright-eyed composer whom I sat close to at a dynamic Sinfonietta performance of his Harpsichord Concerto with Elzbieta Chojnacha as soloist. I shall not forget Henryk with his close-cropped salt and pepper hair and his ginger-brown suit that recalled my grandfather's style. He was on good form that evening and the sole outward sign of his poor health was his limp. Gorecki remains an enigma for me as he composed in many styles. Sometimes I want to stand and ask,"will the real Mr Gorecki identify himself, please."

Anthony Payne's RVW orchestration seemed to me to be a labour of love. As somebody else has remarked, I'm happy to settle for Vaughan Williams's originals with their piano accompaniment.
I'm affraid I missed the Tchaikovsky.

I agree edashtav - the BBCSO a little reticent and under-cooked. The singer simply too loud and declamatory.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sorry, but that Gorecki is so unbelievably DULL. Does it actually change key much? How on earth did it get to be intergalactic CFM etc fave?
And for crying out loud, those b****y prommers clapping in every available space

...but foiled in the Tchaikovsky.

[Bryn]

Well, you both knew what to expect, ...

Ah, but if they did not listen they would not be in a position to churn out their tired old moans about the way others show their appreciation of the work and its performance. Mind you, if the music is found so boring, surely inter-movement applause would come as some relief.

[Resurrection Man]

I like the Gorecki.
And Ruby sounded oK on the car radio.

Which is the acid test, No?!

Depends whether you are listening to it in high-quality FM sound. Or mono and/or low bitrate as is the case now for many DAB stations!

[Hornspieler]

Sorry, but that Gorecki is so unbelievably DULL. Does it actually change key much? How on earth did it get to be intergalactic CFM etc fave?
And for crying out loud, those b****y prommers clapping in every available space

We had the same experience when the children from all the Bournemouth Schools were frog-marched in for our schools concerts.
Their clapping was not applause of approbation - it was in the hope that the piece was finally over.

For me, that work, both brilliantly conceived and touching, is akin to Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima."
It had to be written. It has to be performed.

But it is out of place in a Promenade concert.

HS

[MrGongGong]

For me, that work, both brilliantly conceived and touching, is akin to Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima."
It had to be written. It has to be performed.

But it is out of place in a Promenade concert.

HS

What if it (the Penderecki) had it's original title ?

8' 37"

[Bryn]

What if it (the Penderecki) had it's original title ?

8' 37"

It would be 4' 04" too long?

[edashtav]

We had the same experience when the children from all the Bournemouth Schools were frog-marched in for our schools concerts.
Their clapping was not applause of approbation - it was in the hope that the piece was finally over.

For me, that work, both brilliantly conceived and touching, is akin to Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima."
It had to be written. It has to be performed.

But it is out of place in a Promenade concert.

HS

I'm going to take issue on two counts, hs:

(1) As a regular "frog-marched" pupil who was bussed to your concerts, I'm insulted by your description of my applause although your cap fits well on the heads of most of my contemporaries (I was so brain-washed to believe that education required one to wear a cap that I turned up for my first day at Uni wearing my Bournemouth School cap - I hadn't had time to acquire a Brum University one, you see!). However, if I'm really honest, sometimes I did clap with relief, for some of the pieces were hackneyed and insulted my intelligence.e.g. Ponchielli's Dance of the Hours - its few minutes felt like hours!

(2) Is anything out of place in today's Proms? I'd rather have 40 days and 40 nights full of sorrowful songs than 1 night stuck in a Police Box with Dr Who.

[David Underdown]

And for crying out loud, those b****y prommers clapping in every available space

As ever, not the actual prommers, but those in the stalls, by-and-large. Ditto the coughing, and the clinking of glasses from the boxes. Though it was a prommer who dropped a book on the floor with an almighty clap in a particularly quiet section of the Gorecki.

It does seem that the engineering ws perhaps not it's best, in the hall, I wondered if Ruby Hughes's voice would actually be reaching the back, save in a couple of glorious moments when she gave full voice. The whooping and stamping followiing the Gorecki did seem a little out of place given the nature of the work.

[MrGongGong]

It does seem that the engineering ws perhaps not it's best, in the hall,

Engineering ?

[Richard Barrett]

it is out of place in a Promenade concert.

It would be interesting to see what kind of justification you might have for that bald statement (unless you only came out of your announced forum retirement to make it! )

[DracoM]

<< The whooping and stamping following the Gorecki did seem a little out of place given the nature of the work.>>

Indeed, and it went on and on and on as if it were Mahler 2!! On what I heard, I'm afraid I thought it undeserved. The playing was OK, nothing special, the piece undemanding - give me DSCH in similar vein any day - and paled against what followed frankly.