Prom 71 - 4.09.13: Górecki, Vaughan Williams & Tchaikovsky

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some equate a certain difficulty or obtuseness in a work to define its real or potential greatness. Surely a curious thing.

Coincidentally, I'm thinking of starting a new Thread on "Simplicity and Complexity". I think that you may be equating "complexity" with "difficult" and "obtuse" here, Ex? (Otherwise, I don't understand why you should find it "a curious thing".) I don't know anyone who equates "obtuseness" with "greatness", and whilst, like Stephen Sondheim, I love "the difficult", I don't think that this quality is necessarily a measure of the value of a work of Art.

As for the Gorecki, I first heard it in the early 1980s ina Live broadcast long before the CD was made: I loved it then, but repeated listenings have reduced my regard for the piece. I get the impression that the Music, rather than expanding the individual grief expressed in the words, instead "merely" reflects it and, for me, the Music reduces the expression. The greater distancing in Nono's Il Canto Sosperi brings the listener (well, this listener at any rate) so much closer to the anger and loss embodied in the texts: not just a cathartic "narrative of suffering", but a merciless commentary on it.

[Hornspieler]

I'm going to take issue on two counts, hs:

(1) As a regular "frog-marched" pupil who was bussedto your concerts, I'm insulted by your description of my applause although your cap fits well on the heads of most of my contemporaries (I was so brain-washed to believe that education required one to wear a cap that I turned up for my first day at Uni wearing my Bournemouth School cap - I hadn't had time to acquire a Brum University one, you see!). However, if I'm really honest, sometimes I did clap with relief, for some of the pieces were hackneyed and insulted my intelligence.e.g. Ponchielli's Dance of the Hours - its few minutes felt like hours!

(2) Is anything out of place in today's Proms? I'd rather have 40 days and 40 nights full of sorrowful songs than 1 night stuck in a Police Box with Dr Who.

Well I agree with you on both counts. The buses were part of the problem. To get all the pupils in from every school meant that the first bus would arrive about an hour before the scheduled concert. So, by the time we started, many of the pupils were more than restless - they were resentful.
"Why do we get charged an extra fourpence in the pound to support a bl___y symphony orchestra?" was what they heard at home.
But Bournemouth Corporation wanted some value for their subsidy, so it was decreed that all the schoolchildren should attend, whether they liked it or not.

The local "Senior School" used to occupy the back row of the stalls. Throughout the morning, two masters could be seen walking along the row, banging heads together.

Such items as "Under the Limes" from Massenet's Alsation Scenes, got what they deserved - with applause the moment there was the slightest period of silince.

Not until we reached halfway through the final item (William Tell overture)" did the light of recognition dawn upon their faces. There were excited shouts of "The Lone Ranger" and the audience left in high spirits.

Well, at least Charlie Groves got one thing right!

Regarding your second point. Yes, it does seem that the likes of Doctor Who, or film music which is only effective in its context IS out of place, but I would suggest that to open a prom with a work that is meaningful but depressing is also a mistake.

If the BBC is trying to use the proms to attract a wider listening audience, The Lone Ranger would have been a better starter for the evening.

HS

[Resurrection Man]

....
........

If the BBC is trying to use the proms to attract a wider listening audience, The Lone Ranger would have been a better starter for the evening.

HS

Please don't say that. You'll be giving them ideas for Proms 2014.

[edashtav]

[...]
As for the Gorecki, I first heard it in the early 1980s ina Live broadcast long before the CD was made: I loved it then, but repeated listenings have reduced my regard for the piece. I get the impression that the Music, rather than expanding the individual grief expressed in the words, instead "merely" reflects it and, for me, the Music reduces the expression. The greater distancing in Nono's Il Canto Sosperi brings the listener (well, this listener at any rate) so much closer to the anger and loss embodied in the texts: not just a cathartic "narrative of suffering", but a merciless commentary on it.

I agree with you, up to a point, ferney, but, the question's been asked before,"Was Luigi Nono the Angriest Composer in History?". Many would answer,"Yes, Comrade." I'm not decrying his anger : it's both compelling and discomforting. We need to hear Nono at the Proms: not a piece of his has been heard in a quarter of a century. It would have been his 90th birthday in 2014; time to make amends?

Turning to Gorecki's piece, it's name gives the game away, it's sorrowful, & it's a Catholic work of consolation and loss that offers hope and ends with a holy chord of eternal faith. It's not, primarily, cathartic but is a commentary on the drama of Golgotha. Of course, for the faithless, all that is no more than baloney. The piece, whilst at one level simple, does bear analysis, it is not "simples" like American minimalism, the chords and clusters derived from the symphony's opening canon, for instance, are not predictable and have an intoxicating variety. Incidentally, when you first heard it, ferney, I believe that the world and Gorecki did not know that the young female prisoner survived and lived on for many years after the war. Gorecki was happy when he heard that she been saved, as I'm sure that we all are. "No,Mother do not Weep...."

There is room in the world, and in the Proms, for simple faith (Gorecki) as well as compelling anger (Nono) for none of us know our future.

[edashtav]

a

[...]


Regarding your second point. Yes, it does seem that the likes of Doctor Who, or film music which is only effective in its context IS out of place, but I would suggest that to open a prom with a work that is meaningful but depressing is also a mistake.

If the BBC is trying to use the proms to attract a wider listening audience, The Lone Ranger would have been a better starter for the evening.

HS

Sorry, hs, but our posts have crossed and in answer to ferney, I've dwelt on the positive "faith" side of Gorecki's Sorrowful Songs. To at least part of its audience Gorecki offers consolation and hope: neither of those emotions is depressing.

{I have not quoted you other point about Schools' Concerts in Bournemouth asit may lead this thread astray, but your sharp memories are accurate and penetrative.}

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree with you, up to a point, ferney, but, the question's been asked before,"Was Luigi Nono the Angriest Composer in History?". Many would answer,"Yes, Comrade." I'm not decrying his anger : it's both compelling and discomforting. We need to hear Nono at the Proms: not a piece of his has been heard in a quarter of a century. It would have been his 90th birthday in 2014; time to make amends?

We certainly do. (But I'm not at all sure that Il Canto Sosperi is "angrier" than the Grosse Fugeor ... fragmente/stille ... more so than Shostakovich's 12th Quartet or Quando Stanno morende crosser than Walton's First Symphony, or ...

Turning to Gorecki's piece, it's name gives the game away, it's sorrowful, & it's a Catholic work of consolation and loss that offers hope and ends with a holy chord of eternal faith. It's not, primarily, cathartic but is a commentary on the drama of Golgotha. Of course, for the faithless, all that is no more than baloney. The piece, whilst at one level simple, does bear analysis, it is not "simples" like American minimalism, the chords and clusters derived from the symphony's opening canon, for instance, are not predictable and have an intoxicating variety.

Not for me: "mawkish", "dreary" and "inconvincing to the point of exploitative" are increasingly what the Music communicates to me.

Incidentally, when you first heard it, ferney, I believe that the world and Gorecki did not know that the young female prisoner survived and lived on for many years after the war. Gorecki was happy when he heard that she been saved, as I'm sure that we all are. "No,Mother do not Weep...."

Very glad to hear this, ed; many thanks.

There is room in the world, and in the Proms, for simple faith (Gorecki) as well as compelling anger (Nono) for none of us know our future.

The logic (and, indeed, the sentiments) of this eludes me: it cannot be as banal as it sounds ... ? (And, even if we did "know our future" - as some of us do - in what sense does this improve the quality of the Gorecki Third Symphony for those of us not convinced by its Music? - Or, for that matter, the experience of listening to Nono for those who don't like his Music?)

[Beef Oven!]

Please don't say that. You'll be giving them ideas for Proms 2014.

I was going to get an early letter off suggesting a 'Blake 7' week for next year's season. Should I desist?

[DracoM]

" Turning to Gorecki's piece, it's name gives the game away, it's sorrowful, & it's a Catholic work of consolation and loss that offers hope and ends with a holy chord of eternal faith. It's not, primarily, cathartic but is a commentary on the drama of Golgotha. Of course, for the faithless, all that is no more than baloney. The piece, whilst at one level simple, does bear analysis, it is not "simples" like American minimalism, the chords and clusters derived from the symphony's opening canon, for instance, are not predictable and have an intoxicating variety."


Ferney: 'Not for me: "mawkish", "dreary" and "unconvincing to the point of exploitative" are increasingly what the Music communicates to me. '

Exactly so, ferney. Marmite clearly.
I well recall the interest and even hype last time this piece was centre stage, so this time I listened to to see if the music would make any more impact - I thought it plain soppy last time - and I fear it just sounded slow to the point of caricature, and well-overloaded with sledgehammer blows reminding us 'this is sorrowful'. For me, less is more.

[Richard Barrett]

Il Canto Sosperi

Il Canto Sospeso, I assume you mean... like you (presumably) I don't know if Nono's music is done a great deal of justice by calling it (or him) "angry".

My feeling is that music that attempts to engage with social/political issues risks making itself self-indulgent if it doesn't incorporate some kind of vision within its response to inhumanity and despair, and this is for me the problem with something like Górecki's symphony - I can't regard the "holy chord" as such a vision because of its reliance on the readymade consolation offered by organised religion, so all I'm left with is the lengthily monotonous lamenting... but that's a personal matter, and I would still like to know why this piece supposedly has no place at the Proms.

[Nick Armstrong]

Coincidentally, I'm thinking of starting a new Thread on "Simplicity and Complexity".

Go for it ferns

As for the Gorecki, I first heard it in the early 1980s in a Live broadcast long before the CD was made: I loved it then

I'm afraid I was repulsed by its maunderings right from the start, and could never understand the popularity it acquired... it was most definitely:

Not for me: "mawkish", "dreary" and "unconvincing to the point of exploitative" are increasingly what the Music communicates to me...

...and to me.

Still, it clearly speaks to many, however inexplicable that seems to me!

[Beef Oven!]

Go for it ferns



I'm afraid I was repulsed by its maunderings right from the start, and could never understand the popularity it acquired... it was most definitely:
...and to me.

Still, it clearly speaks to many, however inexplicable that seems to me!

I'm keen on it. Didn't hear it until the Zinman/Upshaw was being played in HMV Oxford Street the week it came out ('95?). Promptly added it to my basket.

[edashtav]

The logic (and, indeed, the sentiments) of this eludes me: it cannot be as banal as it sounds ... ? (And, even if we did "know our future" - as some of us do - in what sense does this improve the quality of the Gorecki Third Symphony for those of us not convinced by its Music? - Or, for that matter, the experience of listening to Nono for those who don't like his Music?)

Yes, it's banal, but I said it because I don't accept that anyone knows the future after death even though many are confident in their faith, or its opposite. I'm beginning to feel that it's necessary to assert the need to include works of simple faith in balanced programmes such as the Proms.

[Exonian]

Coincidentally, I'm thinking of starting a new Thread on "Simplicity and Complexity". I think that you may be equating "complexity" with "difficult" and "obtuse" here, Ex? (Otherwise, I don't understand why you should find it "a curious thing".) I don't know anyone who equates "obtuseness" with "greatness", and whilst, like Stephen Sondheim, I love "the difficult", I don't think that this quality is necessarily a measure of the value of a work of Art.

As for the Gorecki, I first heard it in the early 1980s ina Live broadcast long before the CD was made: I loved it then, but repeated listenings have reduced my regard for the piece. I get the impression that the Music, rather than expanding the individual grief expressed in the words, instead "merely" reflects it and, for me, the Music reduces the expression. The greater distancing in Nono's Il Canto Sosperi brings the listener (well, this listener at any rate) so much closer to the anger and loss embodied in the texts: not just a cathartic "narrative of suffering", but a merciless commentary on it.

Have I got complexity and difficulty and obtuseness confused? No. It is in the nature of some to find the relationship between obtuse and great a compelling one. All manner of music will evoke differing emotional responses. To the individual respondent, all such response will have some legitimacy. As I mentioned earlier, it is about the communicative response.

The comment 'surely a curious thing' is merely a quote from Great Expectations.

Enjoy

[edashtav]

Il Canto Sospeso, I assume you mean... like you (presumably) I don't know if Nono's music is done a great deal of justice by calling it (or him) "angry".

My feeling is that music that attempts to engage with social/political issues risks making itself self-indulgent if it doesn't incorporate some kind of vision within its response to inhumanity and despair, and this is for me the problem with something like Górecki's symphony - I can't regard the "holy chord" as such a vision because of its reliance on the readymade consolation offered by organised religion, so all I'm left with is the lengthily monotonous lamenting... but that's a personal matter, and I would still like to know why this piece supposedly has no place at the Proms.

I was classifying Nono's music as angry, but a number of others have done so. Justice will not be done to Nono's music through description- whether my cheap headline or analytical exegesis but must come through new , live performances. I'm happy remind people of Nono's supposed "angry man" stance if that gets others to listen and debate. 3 Prom performances over the last 60 years would make me turn in my grave were I Luigi.

HS has stated that the Gorecki is too depressing to appear at the Proms.

I find you thought: My feeling is that music that attempts to engage with social/political issues risks making itself self-indulgent if it doesn't incorporate some kind of vision within its response to inhumanity and despair is too narrowing. No piece can encompass all aspects of social and political issues, and those that deal solely with more positive matters should not be condemned without a hearing.

[Richard Barrett]

HS has stated that the Gorecki is too depressing to appear at the Proms.

Oops, I must have missed that. I don't really see that as much of an explanation though.

I find your thought: My feeling is that music that attempts to engage with social/political issues risks making itself self-indulgent if it doesn't incorporate some kind of vision within its response to inhumanity and despair is too narrowing. No piece can encompass all aspects of social and political issues, and those that deal solely with more positive matters should not be condemned without a hearing.

I wasn't suggesting for one moment (of course) that any piece of music can "encompass all aspects of social and political issues", and I don't really understand what you mean by the rest of the sentence in relation to what I wrote, but apart from that I think I didn't express what I was trying to say clearly enough. By "some kind of vision" I mean expressing a sense that keening and lamenting aren't the only things to do. For me this is expressed succinctly by Edward Bond in the preface to Saved (not generally regarded as embodying a particularly hopeful view of humanity, to be sure):

... if the spectator thinks this is pessimistic that is because he has not learned to clutch at straws. Clutching at straws is the only realistic thing to do. The alternative, apart from the self-indulgence of pessimism, is a fatuous optimism based on superficiality of both feeling and observation.