Prom 57 - 25.08.13: Wagner – Parsifal

[Flosshilde]

Agreed, Pet, but perhaps it could have started earlier, given that it was on a Sunday? At 3.30, perhaps, instead of Choral Evensong (well, there are two Christian(ish) ceremonies in 'Parsifal' )

[Veronika]

.... ... are you implying similar levels of comprehension on the part of all concerned?

You don't read the classics? The Librarian

[BBMmk2]

Agreed, Pet, but perhaps it could have started earlier, given that it was on a Sunday? At 3.30, perhaps, instead of Choral Evensong (well, there are two Christian(ish) ceremonies in 'Parsifal' )

that is another option, choral evensong could have been rescheduled, on this occaision?

[Guest]

Timings: the fault is surely the BBC's: even the most cursory knowledge of Elder's usual Wagner timings would have told 'researchers' that he is always slow. If he worked with Goodall way back, then he would have learnt that to be very slow was OK, Parsifal IS justifiably slow and unfolds incrementally and slowly, so that 100-115 minutes is not in the first place all that out of the way for Act 1, and running 5 mins or so over that should have been neither here nor there. So to have programmed Act 1 to be only 90 minutes was actually pretty silly by the Proms programmers IMO.

And once you've mistimed Act 1 that spectacularly badly, the dominoes start to fall.

[Petrushka]

Timings: the fault is surely the BBC's: even the most cursory knowledge of Elder's usual Wagner timings would have told 'researchers' that he is always slow. If he worked with Goodall way back, then he would have learnt that to be very slow was OK, Parsifal IS justifiably slow and unfolds incrementally and slowly, so that 100-115 minutes is not in the first place all that out of the way for Act 1, and running 5 mins or so over that should have been neither here nor there. So to have programmed Act 1 to be only 90 minutes was actually pretty silly by the Proms programmers IMO.

And once you've mistimed Act 1 that spectacularly badly, the dominoes start to fall.

It doesn't even need an examination of Elder's timings; any would have done. I had thought the Bayreuth Festival website carried the timings for each production but if it does I can't find it. Be that as it may, Knappertsbusch 1962 takes 108 minutes for Act 1, while Solti (not normally considered a slowcoach) takes 111 minutes in his studio recording. So, yes, a timing of 90 minutes (plus introductions and applause) is indeed ridiculous. Has anyone despatched it in that time?

A 3.30 start time may well have been more appropriate but at least the Proms planners placed it on the Sunday prior to the Bank Holiday. I cannot think of a worse work in which to be watching the clock and willing the conductor to get a move on. Concert-goers need to plan as well and after a marathon like Parsifal a mad dash to catch the last train home is really as silly as the BBC timings for Act 1.

[amac4165]

And once you've mistimed Act 1 that spectacularly badly, the dominoes start to fall.

They would fall in slow motion ! I was quite surprised to wake up this morning and see it had finished !

Intervals are also longer than stated - 20mins is often 30mins from stop to start. I think the first interval was about 56/57mins. Overruns are more problematic on a Sunday as trains never run that late and are more than likely to be buses anyway !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So, yes, a timing of 90 minutes (plus introductions and applause) is indeed ridiculous. Has anyone despatched it in that time?

Boulez (Bayreuth 1970) takes 1'34"; Kegel (Leipzig 1975) 1'35"; Krauss (Bayreuth 1953), 1'39". (The Gui recording with Callas takes 1'32" - but has cuts).

Slowest Act One is Toscanini at Bayreuth in 1931, who took 2'06". On record, Levine at Bayreuth is the slowest Act One at 1'59" - and it feels like it!

[Richard Barrett]

All of your examples seem to have been speeded up by a factor of sixty there...

[Petrushka]

Boulez (Bayreuth 1970) takes 1'34"; Kegel (Leipzig 1975) 1'35"; Krauss (Bayreuth 1953), 1'39". (The Gui recording with Callas takes 1'32" - but has cuts).

Slowest Act One is Toscanini at Bayreuth in 1931, who took 2'06". On record, Levine at Bayreuth is the slowest Act One at 1'59" - and it feels like it!

Interesting. Do you have these on record or have the figures been obtained from a performance database? I know that Bayreuth have kept timing records since inception and am surprised this information is not on their website (as far as I can see). On CD I have Knappertsbusch 1951 & 1962, Karajan & Solti and would always allow two hours for Act 1. Apparently, the timings of the Knappertsbusch 1962 recording are almost identical to those of Hermann Levi in the 1882 premiere.

[Nick Armstrong]

You don't read the classics? The Librarian

Ah no... that world has entirely passed me by. I've been chided about it before!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting. Do you have these on record or have the figures been obtained from a performance database? I know that Bayreuth have kept timing records since inception and am surprised this information is not on their website (as far as I can see).

I should have given the link to this website, which gives many more timings:

http://www.monsalvat.no/discogra.htm

... there's also the Cambridge Opera Companion to Parsifal which also gives the various and varying timings - but my copy seems to have wandered.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

All of your examples seem to have been speeded up by a factor of sixty there...

Honestly! These mathematical modern composers: no soul.

[Veronika]

Ah no... that world has entirely passed me by. I've been chided about it before!

It's worth the read, there are many characters as colourful as the Librarian.

[Flosshilde]

So, yes, a timing of 90 minutes (plus introductions and applause) is indeed ridiculous. Has anyone despatched it in that time?

Perhaps they were hoping that John Tomlinson would cut a few of his monologues short?

[Petrushka]

I should have given the link to this website, which gives many more timings:

http://www.monsalvat.no/discogra.htm

... there's also the Cambridge Opera Companion to Parsifal which also gives the various and varying timings - but my copy seems to have wandered.

What a fascinating site! Thanks for the pointer.