Prom 56 = 24.08.13: Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester

[Richard J.]

There was certainly no lack of passion as I heard it in the hall. !

That was my experience in the hall too. The last movement was at a slower tempo than I've usually heard it (but it is Allegro non troppo), but there was plenty of tension and passion. Maybe the sight of all these youngsters playing with vigour and visible passion influenced me. (I had a good view of them from the 2nd row of the choir seats.)

[VodkaDilc]

The Ravel was superb, I thought. J-YT obviously knows the work inside out and his mastery showed. Having never seen him live, I was surprised by his lack of flamboyance and, dare I say it, his rather less youthful appearance than I had expected. I suppose we all get older - from my stalls seat he looked rather like the middle-aged Bernstein.

I don't think anyone has given sufficient credit to some excellent soloists in the orchestra - especially in the symphony.

[BBMmk2]

One prom I will catch up on! Thank you boarders!!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The last movement was at a slower tempo than I've usually heard it (but it is Allegro non troppo)

The conductor wishes! - there's a huge-scale acceleration in the first section of the movement, with frequent rapid increases of tempo which need very careful handling to ensure the frenetic effect of the section is realized.

Allegro non troppo (crotchet = 88 per minute) lasts for a mere seven bars, before a three bar accelerando reaches a metronome mark of crotchet = 104; this lasts for nine bars before changing to cr = 109; twelve bars later it's cr = 120; six bars later = 126; eleven bars later =132; nine bars later there is another accel lasting 18 bars to herald the Second Group at cr = 144. This settles for thirty bars before the Coda ratchets the Tempo up to cr = 184: more than twice the speed of the opening. (To get an idea of what the tempo should be here, count aloud seconds using the "elephants" method [one elephant, two elephant etc] - each crotchet beat lands on the main syllables - one-el-pha - but a bit faster.)

Listeners who prefer to hear this work as a description of life in Stalin's Russia might overlook the fact that these tempo changes mirror those in the Dervelopment section of the First Movement - which also points out how the structures of the two outer movements of the Symphony mirror each other (so far as Tempo organization is concerned) like a photographic negative. Which is why conductors need to get the tempo changes right (and not add little "extras" of their own - a rallentando to "expressively" "enhance" the force of the Codetta of the Finale, for example.

Listeners of the "life under Stalin" persuasion may take comfort from the fact that the Second Group of the Finale is airbrushed out of the Recapitulation/Coda.

[mercia]

I've been meaning to ask about speeds at the end of the last movement, because Bernstein (for example) seems to suddenly double the tempo whereas others don't and I couldn't see how they could all be correct, but this article seems to explain things up to a point

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2012/03/15/explore-the-score-shostakovich-symphony-no-5-in-d-minor/

[amateur51]

The conductor wishes! - there's a huge-scale acceleration in the first section of the movement, with frequent rapid increases of tempo which need very careful handling to ensure the frenetic effect of the section is realized.

Allegro non troppo (crotchet = 88 per minute) lasts for a mere seven bars, before a three bar accelerando reaches a metronome mark of crotchet = 104; this lasts for nine bars before changing to cr = 109; twelve bars later it's cr = 120; six bars later = 126; eleven bars later =132; nine bars later there is another accel lasting 18 bars to herald the Second Group at cr = 144. This settles for thirty bars before the Coda ratchets the Tempo up to cr = 184: more than twice the speed of the opening. (To get an idea of what the tempo should be here, count aloud seconds using the "elephants" method [one elephant, two elephant etc] - each crotchet beat lands on the main syllables - one-el-pha - but a bit faster.)

Listeners who prefer to hear this work as a description of life in Stalin's Russia might overlook the fact that these tempo changes mirror those in the Dervelopment section of the First Movement - which also points out how the structures of the two outer movements of the Symphony mirror each other (so far as Tempo organization is concerned) like a photographic negative. Which is why conductors need to get the tempo changes right (and not add little "extras" of their own - a rallentando to "expressively" "enhance" the force of the Codetta of the Finale, for example.

Listeners of the "life under Stalin" persuasion may take comfort from the fact that the Second Group of the Finale is airbrushed out of the Recapitulation/Coda.

A true amateur writes ... Great stuff ferney - would never have 'got that' just by looking at the score

[edashtav]

The conductor wishes! - there's a huge-scale acceleration in the first section of the movement, with frequent rapid increases of tempo which need very careful handling to ensure the frenetic effect of the section is realized.

Allegro non troppo (crotchet = 88 per minute) lasts for a mere seven bars, before a three bar accelerando reaches a metronome mark of crotchet = 104; this lasts for nine bars before changing to cr = 109; twelve bars later it's cr = 120; six bars later = 126; eleven bars later =132; nine bars later there is another accel lasting 18 bars to herald the Second Group at cr = 144. This settles for thirty bars before the Coda ratchets the Tempo up to cr = 184: more than twice the speed of the opening. (To get an idea of what the tempo should be here, count aloud seconds using the "elephants" method [one elephant, two elephant etc] - each crotchet beat lands on the main syllables - one-el-pha - but a bit faster.)

Listeners who prefer to hear this work as a description of life in Stalin's Russia might overlook the fact that these tempo changes mirror those in the Dervelopment section of the First Movement - which also points out how the structures of the two outer movements of the Symphony mirror each other (so far as Tempo organization is concerned) like a photographic negative. Which is why conductors need to get the tempo changes right (and not add little "extras" of their own - a rallentando to "expressively" "enhance" the force of the Codetta of the Finale, for example.

Listeners of the "life under Stalin" persuasion may take comfort from the fact that the Second Group of the Finale is airbrushed out of the Recapitulation/Coda.

A superb post- vintage stuff ferney.

More later - I was a most dissatisfied listener in the RAH!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've been meaning to ask about speeds at the end of the last movement, because Bernstein (for example) seems to suddenly double the tempo whereas others don't and I couldn't see how they could all be correct, but this article seems to explain things up to a point
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2012/0...-5-in-d-minor/

This is a very good article, (thanks, mercs ) especially on the last Movement - and <doh>issimo that the parallel with Prends garde a tois hadn't occured to me before I read this: the Carmen connection seems ever more intriguing!

One correction: Woods describes the Coda as "quaver = 188"; it should be "crotchet = 188".

[edashtav]

I've been meaning to ask about speeds at the end of the last movement, because Bernstein (for example) seems to suddenly double the tempo whereas others don't and I couldn't see how they could all be correct, but this article seems to explain things up to a point
http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2012/0...-5-in-d-minor/

This is a very good article, (thanks, mercs ) especially on the last Movement - and <doh>issimo that the parallel with Prends garde a tois hadn't occured to me before I read this: the Carmen connection seems ever more intriguing!


One correction: Woods describes the Coda as "quaver = 188"; it should be "crotchet = 188".

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2012/03/15/explore-the-score-shostakovich-symphony-no-5-in-d-minor/

Splendid link, mercia - but what an important correction by ferney to whom full marks for spotting it - I had to train a powerful xenon light on my B&H MS before I could clearly read that tempo mark! If full scores are so opaque, no wonder conductors rush or limp in opposite directions.

[Petrushka]

The conductor wishes! - there's a huge-scale acceleration in the first section of the movement, with frequent rapid increases of tempo which need very careful handling to ensure the frenetic effect of the section is realized.

Allegro non troppo (crotchet = 88 per minute) lasts for a mere seven bars, before a three bar accelerando reaches a metronome mark of crotchet = 104; this lasts for nine bars before changing to cr = 109; twelve bars later it's cr = 120; six bars later = 126; eleven bars later =132; nine bars later there is another accel lasting 18 bars to herald the Second Group at cr = 144. This settles for thirty bars before the Coda ratchets the Tempo up to cr = 184: more than twice the speed of the opening. (To get an idea of what the tempo should be here, count aloud seconds using the "elephants" method [one elephant, two elephant etc] - each crotchet beat lands on the main syllables - one-el-pha - but a bit faster.)

Listeners who prefer to hear this work as a description of life in Stalin's Russia might overlook the fact that these tempo changes mirror those in the Dervelopment section of the First Movement - which also points out how the structures of the two outer movements of the Symphony mirror each other (so far as Tempo organization is concerned) like a photographic negative. Which is why conductors need to get the tempo changes right (and not add little "extras" of their own - a rallentando to "expressively" "enhance" the force of the Codetta of the Finale, for example.

Listeners of the "life under Stalin" persuasion may take comfort from the fact that the Second Group of the Finale is airbrushed out of the Recapitulation/Coda.

Fascinating stuff and what makes this forum such a great place.

Big question coming up: which recording, amongst those you know, follows this to the letter?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If full scores are so opaque, no wonder conductors rush or limp in opposite directions.

Don't get me started.



Too late!

Both the B&H and Eulenburg "pocket" scores (both of which are currently out of print) cost around £18 when you can find copies. The size of print is miniscule, with ink blotches "filling in" minim noteheads (so that they look like crotchets) and numbers on metronome marks (so that "minim = 132" could easily be read as "crotchet = 122" and vice versa). The Russian pocket score on which the B&H is based can be downloaded "free" - though 165 pages of Printer ink isn't exactly cheap, especially if you print single-sided and have to then photocopy back-to-back; the advantage here being that you can increase the size to A4. Ledger lines on staves become lost, however, and you can end up with a score that looks as if DSCH was taking ideas on notation from Berio, with noteheads floating on a seemingly blank page!

[edashtav]

Encore plus un

Before I get down to dissecting last night, I shall acclaim its unique(?) and most enjoyable moment. After the Ravel Concerto, an encore was requested by the full, sweaty auditorium. Thibaudet () sits uneasily at the treble end of his stool and Philippe Jordan ( the très, très conductor) strolls over with a folded long score, sits at the bass end of the stool and off they go in a pleasant and occasionally rapt performance of Ravel's 4-handed version of the Enchanted Garden from Mother Goose. A delightful surprise.

Now... posters, has that happened before?

[johnb]

This is a very good article, (thanks, mercs ) especially on the last Movement - and <doh>issimo that the parallel with Prends garde a tois hadn't occured to me before I read this: the Carmen connection seems ever more intriguing!

One correction: Woods describes the Coda as "quaver = 188"; it should be "crotchet = 188".

Some years ago I went to a "Lifelong Learning" series of lectures on the Shostakovich Symphonies given, in part, by (the inspirational) John Pickard at Bristol University (which is also where Pauline Fairclough is based). I distinctly remember JP holding up the score and pointing out that the original metronome speed of the last section of the finale was at the slower marking but later it had been changed, doubling in speed. I now regret not having asked him further about this as I don't know whether the change happened between the autograph and the published score or between different editions of the score.

I've never read this elsewhere so it is always possible that this view is disputed (or mistaken, of course), though we know that Rostropovich used the slower tempo for the closing pages.

[VodkaDilc]

Before I get down to dissecting last night, I shall acclaim its unique(?) and most enjoyable moment. After the Ravel Concerto, an encore was requested by the full, sweaty auditorium. Thibaudet () sits uneasily at the treble end of his stool and Philippe Jordan ( the très, très conductor) strolls over with a folded long score, sits at the bass end of the stool and off they go in a pleasant and occasionally rapt performance of Ravel's 4-handed version of the Enchanted Garden from Mother Goose. A delightful surprise.

Now... posters, has that happened before?

I agree that this was a magical moment. Having had what was clearly a planned encore in the first half, I expected something after the symphony - but no, despite a lengthy reaction from the audience. Did they consider the Shostakovitch was too weighty to to be followed by anything else? To my mind, it's hardly the most profound of symphonies - and Pappano pulled it off a few weeks ago when he followed Rachmaninov 2 with a Beecham-style lollipop.

[edashtav]

After The Party's Over...

No, I’m not going to talk about Russia today, but perhaps I’m going to reflect tangentially upon:

“Every piece of music is a rehearsal of one’s life,” - Sir Colin Davis” (via Petrushka)

I’ve spent my life teaching bright teenagers, for much of the time I lived alongside them both in and away from school. I’ve observed group dynamics.

That’s a preamble. I was in the RAH last evening for a very disappointing concert by the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester under Philippe Jordan. Nothing went really well, and the best was superficial or bland. That was a shock because I’ve heard this orchestra a number of times and always with pleasure.

I’ve thought long and hard before writing this crit. Youngsters deserve to be treated with kindness, allowed to have “bad days at the office”, because that’s part of their learning. It would be easy and crass to name and shame those individuals who wrecked their solos, cracked, dried up, got fingers in a twist, or just failed to bring the music alive.

My diagnosis may be completely wrong, so I’ll preface my remarks with some praise: to the “dressed to kill” leader, Julya Kopylova I think is her name, for fine work, to the strings generally (there’s safety in numbers) for responding well to her lead and to the percussion section for mighty endeavour.

[Now for an interlude that taught me a lot – when I was a green-horn. I taught this physics group without a physics lab, last thing on a Friday. It had 23 girls and 3 boys and was labelled the “bottom set”. The group was a tease. On this Friday, I turned from my blackboard, and all of the girls had stood, stripped off their black, barathea skirts to reveal highly coloured knee-length, satin bloomers. “Follow me to the Head’s Office.” Ooh, did they enjoy that! I’d forgotten that the Head was in prison talking to Jack Profumo, or was it Mr Poulsen! Our Head never returned that afternoon… I’ll spare my subsequent blushes!… ]

Datum: Philippe Jordan is less than 40 years old, elegant and he struts his stuff. He uses both hands equally whilst conducting but I observed that he “performed” the music; his "first" first beats were sometimes vestigial, or absent, particularly in the first half. With an orchestra on tour, a lot can be taken for granted… or can it? The BBC cameras were present. Time for Philippe to “do his moves”.

This orchestra had carefully prepared the programme and then, and then, ... it went on its corporate travels, with a young conductor and the ever-young M. Thibaudet.

I put it to the orchestra that parties, transitory friendships and “stuff” may have happened en route to the RAH. It takes only a minority of “hangovers” to remove spit & polish from an ensemble.

Fair enough… not much more time left before professional commitment takes over.

Epilogue. All might have been different had the late Sir Colin or Bernard Haitink been in charge!