Prom 53 - 22.08.13: Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Prokofiev

[edashtav]

Interesting - the "detachment" is what makes the Prok#5 such a magnificent experience for me: the sense that more is being implied than stated. (Which is why I so love the recordings by Karajan and Mravinsky, who both had comparable distaste for excessive emotional display and whose overwhelmingly powerful performances wipe the floor with the competition).

There are other composers (not DSCH, by the way) who are so direct and unbuttoned that this alienates me from what they're trying to communicate. I just don't think that grown men should behave like that in public!

Ooh, you can't get away with that, ferney. Surely, the point of art and music is to make the private, public? It's an organised stream of non-cognitive messages that may have emotional content. Furthermore, are you suggesting that it's O.K. for Dame Ethel Smyth to wear her heart on her sleeve in her music but not Tchaikovsky?

No, of course, you're being your Provokatiev best!

[teamsaint]

Ooh, you can't get away with that, ferney. Surely, the point of art and music is to make the private, public? It's an organised stream of non-cognitive messages that may have emotional content. Furthermore, are you suggesting that it's O..K for Dame Ethel Smyth to wear her heart on her sleeve in her music but not Tchaikovsky?

No, of course, you're being your Provokatiev best!

I didn't like to mention that......brave man, Ed !!

[Simon B]

It would be really helpful, perhaps for next year's Proms, if the BBC could manage little on-screen graphics to let us at home know where you are - perhaps little text boxes with your user-names and arrows hovering just over your heads

One thing which troubles me just a tiny bit at televised Proms is that the area (front of stalls H, effectively a few rows up the stalls, level with about the
5th/6th row of arena standees) where I try my damndest to get tickets, tends to be in shot at times from that boom camera in stalls O... It may be time to don a Ronald Reagan mask per standard armed robbery chic...

Anyway, I thought the Rotterdam concert was... pretty ok really. Rich, full sound in R&J (the lower strings seem particularly good in this orchestra) but not enough of it. <ironic tone>Tchaikovsky played like a souped up tuneful version of Brahms. <\ironic tone>

The soloists voice sounded very odd indeed for the first few bars of the Wagner, as though she was having technical problems or nerves, tension, whatever were interfering with sound production. Settled down after a while, but even at close proximity I couldn't fully engage. Like amac above, I find myself doing "spot the bit of Tristan" in these songs, try as I might not to.

The Prokofiev got better as it went on, but the first movement didn't hit the mark for me. More struggle, more epic grandeur needed. YNS distorted the pulse of that awesome coda too much IMO - slower, steadier, ultimately the biggest sound an orchestra can make please. He's good at the fast bits though, so it got better from 2nd movement on. Fearsomely difficult to play the last few bars of the symphony with enough simultaneous velocity and oomph in the crescendo - the Rotterdam orchestra got as close as I've heard.

As often with these visiting orchestra Proms, the best bit was the encore. Brilliant bit of Shostakovich (was it from The Gadfly?). Spectacularly good demonstration of tambourine technique at breakneck speed - for those who notice such things, i.e. me!

Looking forward to the terrific programme from the Warsaw orchestra tonight.

[teamsaint]

Simon B....I notice the tambourining too.....brilliant. I think you noticed a lot more than me generally though !!!

The encore was indeed from Gadfly.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely

Please!

the point of art and music is to make the private, public?

"the" (pronounced "theeee") point, ed??? "The" sole and only "point of Art and Music" is a sort of upgrade Jeremy Kyle show? I'm not entirely sure how this fits in with a Mediaeval isoryhthmic motet, the Lindisfarne Gospel illuminations, Beowulf, an Islamic carpet design, a piece of Lalique glass, For Philip Guston, Bach's Keyboard Inventions, a set of Sweelinck variations, the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Gruppen, or Handel's Harpsichord suites, Stravinsky's Octet .... or Die Meistersinger, Italian Symphony for that matter.

It's an organised stream of non-cognitive messages that may have emotional content.

Aren't "noncognitive" and "emotional" sort of tautologous? Art "may have emotional content", indeed - Prokofiev's Fifth certainly does, for example - but 1) it should never drip with "self-expression", (Wagner's emotional expression in Meistersinger isn't "private" - the characters present general, "public" emotions) and 2) it doesn't have to have any "emotion" other than the sheer joy of its composition (the breathtaking way words, icons, sounds are combined). Most of the best works of Art are those which understate, allowing the audience to supply something of their own.

Furthermore, are you suggesting that it's O.K. for Dame Ethel Smyth to wear her heart on her sleeve in her music but not Tchaikovsky?

I was, but did not intend to do so There are very few (trans "I can't think of any just at this moment") women composers who turn the Concert Hall into a session of open therapy as often as do some of their testosterone-fuelled colleagues. But that does not mean to say that some women artists cannot be as dreadful. Hearts worn on sleeves make for very expensive laundry bills.

No, of course, you're being your Provokatiev best!

Ooh, you don't get away with that, eddie: there are many members of the public who don't use Art as "catharsis", preferring its verfremsdungaffekte. Prokofiev was, I think (and Ferretf's post suggests he feels this, too) - the astonishing way that things are revealed that are not made obvious; we are brought closer to the work by the artist's keeping their distance.

[edashtav]

Promenades interrupt debate

Please!


"the" (pronounced "theeee") point, ed??? "The" sole and only "point of Art and Music" is a sort of upgrade Jeremy Kyle show? I'm not entirely sure how this fits in with a Mediaeval isoryhthmic motet, the Lindisfarne Gospel illuminations, Beowulf, an Islamic carpet design, a piece of Lalique glass, For Philip Guston, Bach's Keyboard Inventions, a set of Sweelinck variations, the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Gruppen, or Handel's Harpsichord suites, Stravinsky's Octet .... or Die Meistersinger, Italian Symphony for that matter.


Aren't "noncognitive" and "emotional" sort of tautologous? Art "may have emotional content", indeed - Prokofiev's Fifth certainly does, for example - but 1) it should never drip with "self-expression", (Wagner's emotional expression in Meistersinger isn't "private" - the characters present general, "public" emotions) and 2) it doesn't have to have any "emotion" other than the sheer joy of its composition (the breathtaking way words, icons, sounds are combined). Most of the best works of Art are those which understate, allowing the audience to supply something of their own.


I was, but did not intend to do so There are very few (trans "I can't think of any just at this moment") women composers who turn the Concert Hall into a session of open therapy as often as do some of their testosterone-fuelled colleagues. But that does not mean to say that some women artists cannot be as dreadful. Hearts worn on sleeves make for very expensive laundry bills.


Ooh, you don't get away with that, eddie: there are many members of the public who don't use Art as "catharsis", preferring its verfremsdungaffekte. Prokofiev was, I think (and Ferretf's post suggests he feels this, too) - the astonishing way that things are revealed that are not made obvious; we are brought closer to the work by the artist's keeping their distance.

Well, that's a challenging riposte. I shan't duck the issues raised but I must change and make my convoluted way by public transport & shank's pony to tonight's Prom... then a quick turnaround to seek out DSCH tomorrow night. In the interim ... I agree with many of your points ... how disappointing is that?

P.S. I hate Eddie, Eddy 'n Ted for historical reasons!
Ed or Ded (I was partially paralysed at an early age) are surprisingly acceptable!

[Nick Armstrong]

Surely...

*Rolls up sleeves, settles back in chair, sips coffee and waits* emoticon

Please!

Yes! Like Tonic after Dominant!

I agree with many of your points

Noooooooooooo!!!!

There are very few (trans "I can't think of any just at this moment")

Enjoyed that, Shirl !!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[edashtav]

Galina of the Flail fits the Bill

Please!

I was, but did not intend to do so There are very few (trans "I can't think of any just at this moment") women composers who turn the Concert Hall into a session of open therapy as often as do some of their testosterone-fuelled colleagues. But that does not mean to say that some women artists cannot be as dreadful. Hearts worn on sleeves make for very expensive laundry bills.

I'm cherry-picking today, Miss Temple

The set {women composers} has very many fewer members than {male composers} and the sub-set {romantic & late romantic women composers} is wretchedly small, hence the lack of a goodly cohort of heart-on-sleeve lady composers.
Just to prompt your memory. Don't neglect Galina Ustvolskaya. I quote:

"Referring to her slab-like sonorities delivered with piledriving staccato attack, Dutch critic Elmer Schoenberger has called her "the lady with the hammer". Perhaps more accurate would be "the lady with the flail". The puritanical lashing fury of her music often suggests the image of Christ flogging the moneylenders from the temple, while several writers have remarked on the "Old Testament" vengefulness they hear in her work. There is a pounding masculinity in many of Ustvolskaya's scores - few men, let alone women, have written music as violent as this - which bespeaks an affinity more for Jehovah than for Jesus, for the railing prophets of the Exile rather than the Gospel message of love. "

Reckon that's pretty full-on in the emotional stakes, ferney!

(Although, I think it's rather sad that Galina is slyly labelled as displaying "masculinity" when she espouses deep emotions - that could limit other female composers letting rip, couldn't it!)

[edashtav]

Cause and Effect in Prokofiev's Music

Ooh, you don't get away with that, eddie: there are many members of the public who don't use Art as "catharsis", preferring its verfremsdungaffekte. Prokofiev was, I think (and Ferretf's post suggests he feels this, too) - the astonishing way that things are revealed that are not made obvious; we are brought closer to the work by the artist's keeping their distance.

Are you referring to the V-Effekte, Ferney?

I think you're confusing cause and effect with Prokofiev. I agree that his emotions are frequently tightly controlled - he can seem heartless and cold - I wonder if that's a problem for Caliban. But.. was that not an effect of the Soviet Regime rather than Prokofiev's nature? I quote, in my defence the opera "The Fiery Angel" and that Angel's child: the 3rd Symphony. Both pieces drip with passion and raw emotion. I learned P's 2nd Violin Concerto via Isaac Stern - he invested real passion in its slow movement. I don't buy SP as a a composer of musical chess games.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not entirely sure what your point is, ed.

My preference is for Music (and performances) that allow greater access into the intellectual/spiritual/emotional world by virtue of understatement. I expressed dislike of overt emotional indulgence, and (bearing in mind a broadcast of Scriabin's Poem of Ecstacy from earlier in the week) said that I didn't think that "a grown man should" etc etc. I don't believe a grown woman should, either, but didn't make this clear. I also said that I couldn't think of any woman composer who was as overtly emotionally-driven as some of their chap colleagues: you have mentioned Ustvolkaya, who is an excellent example - why I couldn't think of her is probably something to do with a reaction to an entire evening of her Music at Huddersfield many years ago. I concede completely that her work repulses me quite as much as does Scriabin's Poem of Ecstacy - or, as I put it in the post you quote from "some women artists can be quite as dreadful" [as their male colleagues].

Which, I suppose, is a very long-winded way of saying that I much prefer the powerful, telling emotional restraint (which Ferretf regrets) in the Prokofiev #5 to the emotional self-indulgence of Scriabin and Ustvolskaya.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are you referring to the V[erfremdungs]Effekte, Ferney?

Yep.

Prokofiev ... 's emotions are frequently tightly controlled - he can seem heartless and cold. But.. was that not an effect of the Soviet Regime rather than Prokofiev's nature?

1) "The Soviet Regime" preferred composers to produce sub-Tchaikovskyan, emotionally-highlighted works. Everything else was "Formalist".
2) Prokofiev's "nature" (or, at least, his public personality) was (from the evidence of his letters and recollections of people who knew him) somewhat "cold and heartless" - even when a student in pre-Soviet Russia and whilst living abroad in the 1920s.

I quote, in my defence the opera "The Fiery Angel" and that Angel's child: the 3rd Symphony. Both pieces drip with passion and raw emotion.

Whose "passion and raw emotion"? There is "passion and raw emotion" in everything Brecht wrote: verfremsdungeffekte don't forbid emotional, passionat expression - they keep them in proportion, preventing them from being the sole phenomenon emerging from the work of Art.

I learned P's 2nd Violin Concerto via Isaac Stern - he invested real passion in its slow movement.

See above.

I don't buy SP as a a composer of musical chess games.

Those letter "a"s are a beggar, aren't they. Once again, I'm not clear what your point is here, ed. Are you addressing Ferretf (who wishes Prokofiev were more emotionally forthcoming in his Symphonies) or me (who believes that the emotional weight is all the greater for being understated)?

[edashtav]

Down &amp; Dirty with Scriabin &amp; Elgar

Not entirely sure what your point is, ed.

My preference is for Music (and performances) that allow greater access into the intellectual/spiritual/emotional world by virtue of understatement. I expressed dislike of overt emotional indulgence, and (bearing in mind a broadcast of Scriabin's Poem of Ecstacy from earlier in the week) said that I didn't think that "a grown man should" etc etc. I don't believe a grown woman should, either, but didn't make this clear. I also said that I couldn't think of any woman composer who was as overtly emotionally-driven as some of their chap colleagues: you have mentioned Ustvolkaya, who is an excellent example - why I couldn't think of her is probably something to do with a reaction to an entire evening of her Music at Huddersfield many years ago. I concede completely that her work repulses me quite as much as does Scriabin's Poem of Ecstacy - or, as I put it in the post you quote from "some women artists can be quite as dreadful" [as their male colleagues].

Which, I suppose, is a very long-winded way of saying that I much prefer the powerful, telling emotional restraint (which Ferretf regrets) in the Prokofiev #5 to the emotional self-indulgence of Scriabin and Ustvolskaya.

I agree re Scriabin - he can be repulsive
- but it's a question of each to his own - I often shudder when Elgar gets down & dirty!


Must fly to meet an old school friend for a Pre-Prom bite & on to dissect DSCH's 5th plus be reviled by Wagner's Rienzi Ovt.

[bluestateprommer]

Anyway, I thought the Rotterdam concert was... pretty ok really.

Overall, I'd have to agree. The Rotterdam Phil sound in very good shape with YNS in charge (perhaps it helps to have a principal conductor who doesn't come into rehearsals straight off the plane, a bit of exaggerated caricature to make a point), based on this Prom. I second Simon B's evaluation of the big rich sound in the Tchaikovsky, well paced and nothing too mannered to my ears. Some folks here had strongly negative reactions to ACA in the Wesendonck-Lieder, but I'm not among them. She was good, if not necessarily "great", but certainly far from the train-wreck that others seemed to feel about her work here.

The fly in the ointment for me about this concert was Prokofiev 5, where YNS' interpretation struck me somehow as too slick, for lack of a better sound-bite summary. The orchestra were on top form, but it sound almost too much like a well-oiled machine, with YNS not trying to plumb for meaning beyond the surface. Granted, Prokofiev 5 isn't DSCH 5, nor was it meant to be. However, agreed that the DSCH encore was flat-out fun, and the perfect palate cleanser here.

Looking ahead, and going off-topic to one of YNS' other orchestras, it'll be interesting if YNS is able to bring the Philadelphia Orchestra back to The Proms at some point down the line. Maybe it'll happen after their finances have stabilized a bit and YNS has had time to work his glad-handing and fund-raising magic in Philly. Fingers crossed that this happens. Obviously it's logistically much easier to bring the Rotterdam Philharmonic back.

Oh, and points to the audience for respecting the Prokofiev and Wagner, not applauding between the movements & songs, respectively. Kind of sad that we have to note this when it happens.