Prom 47 - 17.08.13: Brahms – A German Requiem

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You and Milton Babbitt both, ts!

I studied a lot of Brahms when I was a teenager, but rather lost sight of him in the fifteen-year long Mahlerfest that was my twenties and early thirties. In the past ten years or so, I've returned to him - and, in particular, the Chamber Music which I adore more with every hearing. And those late works for Piano solo, too ... (gazesinraptwondermentemoticon)

[jayne lee wilson]

Why does Brahms, of all composers, "remind" you of this? Like Bach, he was intensely aware of "very recent stylistic developments" and "reacted or responded" to them head on. Like Schoenberg, he was devoted to the Sonata principle, but the Tonal relationships he explores here would have startled even Beethoven. Take away the Tonic pedal from the Introduction to the First Symphony and you have a passage of Music whose chromaticism rivals Tristan. Brahms the Progressivist wasn't just an eye-catching title; it sums up the revolutionary aspect of the composer's attitude to Music and to the Austro-German Music Tradition - something that had to be kept in a state of "stylistic development" if it were not to stagnate. He wasn't a Max Bruch figure, attempting to stem the flow of such development by damming it in the language of the 1850s - he wanted continuity through progress. This resulted in a personal language that only later Modernists (Mahler, Schoenberg, Busoni) understood for what it was - and why Schenker (who reverred Brahms as "the last master") had such difficulties analyzing his Music. This is a huge difference between Brahms' attitude and those composers today who are hostile to "very recent stylistic developments" (and some not so "very recent") and write in a language that would have sounded timid even in 1955.

PS: after reading ed's quotation of this, it strikes me that the tone of the opening sentence sounds much more sneering than it left here. Genuine interest and (I hope) productive disagreement intended!

Tonal worries only in the music, fhg!

Points taken, but I simply don't believe any composer could do what Brahms did now. The musical productions and performances, styles and languages of our time seem far too diverse for even the most gifted to synthesise or stylistically develop in a similar way. There isn't really such a tradition as Brahms had, to relate to any more. Just many styles, models and sources. And how many can recognise or respond to a significant new creation now? Think of Max Davies, stunningly combining plainchant transformations with 2nd Viennese-school orchestral imagery (and still daunting, if not baffling, even many serious listeners).
I was shocked at the negative response to Ades' Totentanz here - all that sneering and box-ticking of stylistic precedent with hardly an ear on the intensely dramatic and fresh experience it presented. And with David Matthews' Vision of the Sea - easy (and erroneous) precedent-and-influence spotting (though no-one noticed the most obvious reference of all to Debussy!) which prevented most from hearing the compelling, atmospheric vision of its coda.

That's why I highlighted Brahms' study of Baroque Vocal music - reaching back over a century, it was a vital part of his inspiration and musical thinking for the Requiem, and if you happen to be listening to examples of it (Zelenka's Litaniae Xaverianae just now) you hear and feel the relationship keenly, foregrounded against the more frequently-noted harmonic innovation. But Of COURSE his language reaches forward, ever-evolving in the way only the greatest artists can manage, offering Schoenberg plenty to progress from. I didn't think that much needed reiterating, and I'm always trying to compress an argument as the small hours wear on, and get back to more listening - (or feed my poor, so-patient cat).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was shocked at the negative response to Ades' Totentanz here - all that sneering and box-ticking of stylistic precedent with hardly an ear on the intensely dramatic and fresh experience it presented. And with David Matthews' Vision of the Sea - easy (and erroneous) precedent-and-influence spotting (though no-one noticed the most obvious reference of all to Debussy!) which prevented most from hearing the compelling, atmospheric vision of its coda.

Did I "sneer" at Ades and Matthews? Yes, I suppose I did - which I shouldn't, as I'm in awe of anyone who dares to put their creative work in front of the public. The works were successful in their own terms, which is the most important thing. I suppose. But I wasn't nearly as impressed by them as were you - it was more akin to going through a local Art Gallery and seeing still life after still life - all executed with extreme competence, and a skill I couldn't emulate if I practiced for years. But then there's a Cezanne - and suddenly the universe holds its breath, mops its brow and readjusts its tie before moving on, a completely different place. It's the difference between using the medium to reflect an object and using the object as a pretext for using the medium in totally new, unexpected, history-changing and life-enhancing ways.

Whilst (for example) Ferneyhough's Firecycle Beta, La Terre est un'Homme, Plotzlichkeit, Barrett's Vanity, No, or Dillon's Helle Nacht remain un-Prommed, I cannot but feel disappointed by what their (IMO) lesser compatriots are commissioned to provide.

[Roehre]

An ex punk writes......

In a pub style conversation the other day, somebody asked "Who is your favourite composer?"

Daft question really, but there is something , and I really don't know what, that I find compelling about Brahms' music above almost everybody else......even perhaps ...you know who.
And when that rather odd question rears it's head, as it does, the name Brahms is always first in my head. ...:

he's always in my top 3

[BBMmk2]

Likweise. the the great B's in classical music: Bach(J S), LvB and Brahms. In that order, I reckon?

[Roehre]

Likweise. the the great B's in classical music: Bach(J S), LvB and Brahms. In that order, I reckon?

Two B's, but no JSBach in my personal top 3 (but certainly in my top 10 -where there isn't a place for WAM )

[jayne lee wilson]

Did I "sneer" at Ades and Matthews? Yes, I suppose I did - which I shouldn't, as I'm in awe of anyone who dares to put their creative work in front of the public. The works were successful in their own terms, which is the most important thing. I suppose. But I wasn't nearly as impressed by them as were you - it was more akin to going through a local Art Gallery and seeing still life after still life - all executed with extreme competence, and a skill I couldn't emulate if I practiced for years. But then there's a Cezanne - and suddenly the universe holds its breath, mops its brow and readjusts its tie before moving on, a completely different place. It's the difference between using the medium to reflect an object and using the object as a pretext for using the medium in totally new, unexpected, history-changing and life-enhancing ways.

Whilst (for example) Ferneyhough's Firecycle Beta, La Terre est un'Homme, Plotzlichkeit, Barrett's Vanity, No, or Dillon's Helle Nacht remain un-Prommed, I cannot but feel disappointed by what their (IMO) lesser compatriots are commissioned to provide.

I didn't actually have you in mind when I mentioned "sneering" fhg - perish the thought.

Absolutely, I'd like to see more of the composers you mention (and many others) at the Proms and elsewhere, and not hived off into a latenight ghetto or a BBC4 package. As it happens, I just can't connect with Ferneyhough despite many attempts; Dillon has found a response in me; I've heard too little Barrett to comment (sorry RB, will make an effort again soon...).
But I'm not sure I see their music as any more or less "valid" than the some of the works we have heard at the Proms this year; more innovative - yes, certainly, but belonging to other traditions (or no traditions at all).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But I'm not sure I see their music as any more or less "valid" than the some of the works we have heard at the Proms this year; more innovative - yes, certainly, but belonging to other traditions (or no traditions at all).

We've moved worlds away from Schumann and Brahms, but I would just pick up on this - Ades has had 13 works performed at the Proms, nine of them in the "main" evening event; David Matthews has had nine works performed at the Proms, five of them in the main evening event. Ferneyhough has had five works performed at the Proms, one (the Missa Brevis in 1978) as part of the main evening concert. Richard Barrett? Nothing. Ziltch. Niente. An internationally acclaimed composer, totally ignored by "the World's Greatest Music Festival" in favour of ... well, let's just agree that there's an unjustifiable inbalance.

[jayne lee wilson]

With sincere apologies to Mr Eliot...

THE LIFE OF MUSIC IN THE AGE OF RECORDINGS

Style present and style past
Are both perhaps present in style future,
And style future contained in style past.
If all style is eternally present
All style is unredeemable.

Or is all style just too diversely and manifestly redeemable now, for music (or us) to bear?

[edashtav]

I didn't actually have you in mind when I mentioned "sneering" fhg - perish the thought.

Absolutely, I'd like to see more of the composers you mention (and many others) at the Proms and elsewhere, and not hived off into a latenight ghetto or a BBC4 package. As it happens, I just can't connect with Ferneyhough despite many attempts; Dillon has found a response in me; I've heard too little Barrett to comment (sorry RB, will make an effort again soon...).
But I'm not sure I see their music as any more or less "valid" than the some of the works we have heard at the Proms this year; more innovative - yes, certainly, but belonging to other traditions (or no traditions at all).

We've moved worlds away from Schumann and Brahms, but I would just pick up on this - Ades has had 13 works performed at the Proms, nine of them in the "main" evening event; David Matthews has had nine works performed at the Proms, five of them in the main evening event. Ferneyhough has had five works performed at the Proms, one (the Missa Brevis in 1978) as part of the main evening concert. Richard Barrett? Nothing. Ziltch. Niente. An internationally acclaimed composer, totally ignored by "the World's Greatest Music Festival" in favour of ... well, let's just agree that there's an unjustifiable inbalance.

It matters little from where a composer gets his inspiration, Jayne, but what makes it "valid" or "invalid" is the value added by the composer - the way he puts an old style through the wringer of his creativity and produces something that is fresh and original, for instance.

Ferney has produced some telling stats (many thanks!). He cautiously understates the case for his namesake and others who are under-represented at the Proms compared with "safer" contemporaries- those who add less to their models. The latter are safer, or more accessible, if you prefer, precisely because they offer more "hooks" to their contemporary audience. What may make their works invalid is that with a growing knowledge and understanding of their models, works that are largely "reproductions" seem less like "the real deal". The more aware listener will detect such issues earlier. I wrote recently that the Penderecki 3 Cello Concerto Grosso was a sturdy composition in so many ways but it was audibly constructed using 50% bricks etched with the name "Shostakovitch", structural steel forged by Bruckner of Austria, and painted with an attractive gloss finish from pots labelled "Alfred Schnittke". The Penderecki is fine - for those who are yet to discover how little KP has added, But for others, including myself, it got the thumbs down with a rider "this work should have been replaced by a work of greater originality". I rely on great minds within Radio 3 who have heard so much more than I, to do some of the discriminating for me. In the 21st century, I find these BBC thinkers to be less sagacious. Too many works are being scheduled because they have immediate audience appeal. The danger is that these scores will crowd out pieces of greater importance and merit. To leave Barrett in the garret is to risk our musical legacy to future generations. We're at risk of returning to a "Vauxhall Gardens" musical culture - music reduced to a trivial diversion - I don't want to live in a land scorned by others as without music.

[Nick Armstrong]

Schumann's D minor played with utter panache and conviction. The rhythmic lilt was often intoxicating. I have no doubt that this was the finest performance that I've heard of this work and it's one that I've heard frequently over the last 60 years.

I've now caught up with this concert; thanks to the ability to download, I've actually listened to it twice, including once on the iPod... No! in fact, three times, for the Schumann anyway, the first on the car radio on the motorway during the re-broadcast on Sunday...

That motorway listen was no guide as I found the timps too dominant in the Schumann - and the opening of the Brahms inaudible so we switched to other things.

Listening again, it was a very good performance of the Schumann. I don't think I'd go as far as ed to say the finest ever heard (it doesn't displace Sawallisch in Dresden, miraculous to my ears - and just as transparent and appropriately fleet) - but an absorbing listen.

... the glorious performance of the German Requiem. All concerned: conductor, orchestra and the two soloists performed magnificently. The gain in transparency from the smaller choir and period orchestra was considerable but there was no sense of it being small in scale.

Splendid!

I did think this was a lovely performance - and the central movement "Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen..." was one of the best, if not the best, I've ever heard: what an ideal mobile tempo!! This music (a bit like the Fauré Requiem) can separate like bad crème anglaise into sickly thickness if a slow, mawkish tempo is adopted - the one-in-a-bar rocking tempo here 'took' perfectly...

And that wonderful little horn flourish at the end of the orchestral passage in the middle leading back to the choral reprise - PERFECTION !!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If she, (Marin Alsop), has recorded on Naxos, it would surely be a BaL winner?

She has; it's a very recent release - but with a German Choir and Orchestra (and on modern instruments):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-German-Requiem-Marin-8-572996/dp/B00DCXR8ZC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1377091062&sr=1-1&keywords=marin+alsop%2C+brahms+requiem

... I haven't heard it, so can't comment.

[pmartel]

I've always liked the Requiem, it's one of those pieces you can just curl up with and enjoy. In this part of the world in Canada, we so rarely get to here these types of performances. Thank God for the internet and being able to record the broadcast. I've heard bits of this that I recorded and was listening to the live broadcast at work on Saturday.

As others have said, the Schumann was really well done as NOT one of my favourites.

I am going to be sitting down on my night off and listening to the full broadcast on my stereo system.

My ONLY cd I have of the Brahms Requiem is with Nicolas Harnoncourt, so this will be a treat.

Maron Alsop is a true up and comer, she brought the Buffalo Philharmonic to a new level and she's got a long way to go yet