Prom 47 - 17.08.13: Brahms – A German Requiem

[amateur51]

I've just greatly enjoyed the performance of Brahms Tragic Overture and Schumann symphony no 4 and what crackers they were - enthrallingly different from so many run-of-the-mill performances.

[Petrushka]

I've just greatly enjoyed the performance of Brahms Tragic Overture and Schumann symphony no 4 and what crackers they were - enthrallingly different from so many run-of-the-mill performances.

Agreed. The timpani at the opening of the Tragic Overture nearly made me jump out of my skin.

I still have a bit of a problem with the German Requiem. For all its beauties, and they are many, I find it overlong and unvaried. I also find difficulty in following the choral text even with it in front of me and this was something I experienced again last night. I've transferred the whole Prom to DVD audio and will try again in the future.

[mlb7171]

Very enjoyable Schumann, although I confess to always returning to the Mahler orchestration of no. 4, as recorded by Chailly a couple of years ago. It just has something a little extra!

[amateur51]

I enjoyed this performance a lot, not least for its willingness to keep things relatively light and moving on, Much of the solo and choral singing was wonderful and I wondered if, for a moment, Alsop was going to follow the outrageous but wonderful Klemperer heavy metal brass in Denn alles Fleisch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBAtf5o9er8 (heavy metal at 02:25

but no

[amac4165]

Yes, a beautifully sung and tenderly phrased German Requiem. The orchestra remained audible throughout against the choir, delicately balanced. I would have liked a smaller choral force though

'

Actually it was not a huge choir and they were located on stage centrally in a block 12 across and may be 7 or 8 deep - immediately behind the orchestra. Just about the same arrangement as I ever seen.

For me it took a while to get going - about 20 -25 mins in. They were bits I was not too sure about - eg the build up to the cresendos in Alles Flesch seemed a bit laboured and "semaphored" the tutti a bit too much.

Otherwise a pretty good concert - at last I actually enjoyed a Schumann symphony

amac

[edashtav]

Actually it was not a huge choir and they were located on stage centrally in a block 12 across and may be 7 or 8 deep - immediately behind the orchestra. Just about the same arrangement as I ever seen.

For me it took a while to get going - about 20 -25 mins in. They were bits I was not too sure about - eg the build up to the cresendos in Alles Flesch seemed a bit laboured and "semaphored" the tutti a bit too much.

Otherwise a pretty good concert - at last I actually enjoyed a Schumann symphony

amac

I'm glad you were able to report in the choir's size, amac - I felt in my bones that it was a high quality small semi-professional choir rather than a large chorus.

It's very satisfying that so many listeners responded well to the exceptional Schumann performance. It certainly overshadowed the German Requiem.

[johnb]

I missed the love broadcast but have just listened to the Schumann 4.

Wow - this is the first time I have truly enjoyed the piece. It just dances along but at the same time it is so very dramatic.

[jayne lee wilson]

Always a little surprised at the lukewarm response to the German Requiem, I find it a deeply lovable piece. Maybe listeners expect (consciously or not) something more grandly Romantic, and possibly some earlier, slower, larger-scale performances have (wrongly) raised those expectations, and made it seem a little turgid. It is a tender and reflective piece mostly, with the fugues or solos as the main climactic or emotional focus, just as in its baroque models. We're so used to thinking of Brahms as a "19th Century Romantic" we tend to forget that he didn't often storm citadels in the Beethovenian way - he came (perhaps awkwardly) to terms with that in the D Minor Piano concerto and 1st Symphony (and what a great struggle they both were!). Listening to the largo of Haydn's Symphony No.88, Brahms said "I want my 9th symphony to be like this". And in his last great symphonic statement he concludes with... a passacaglia.

It reminds me of how often listeners complain that a contemporary composer (Ades, say, or David Matthews...or John Adams) has used a language that now seems outworn or "out-of-date" - especially with reference to late Romantic or early Modernist/chromatic styles, as if new music is only valid if it reacts or responds to some very recent stylistic development. Brahms came to perhaps rather reluctant terms with his immediate, towering symphonic predecessor, yes - but his true artistic ancestors were much earlier.

Gardiner's 2nd recording of the Brahms Requiem (my current favourite) released in 2012, uses a chorus of 46 and an orchestra of 68. It sounds just right, albeit in the closer, warmer acoustic of the Usher Hall. (Where Mackerras' SCO Brahms Symphonies were also made!).

[LaurieWatt]

Always a little surprised at the lukewarm response to the German Requiem, I find it a deeply lovable piece. Maybe listeners expect (consciously or not) something more grandly Romantic, and possibly some earlier, slower, larger-scale performances have (wrongly) raised those expectations, and made it seem a little turgid. It is a tender and reflective piece mostly, with the fugues or solos as the main climactic or emotional focus, just as in its baroque models. We're so used to thinking of Brahms as a "19th Century Romantic" we tend to forget that he didn't often storm citadels in the Beethovenian way - he came (perhaps awkwardly) to terms with that in the D Minor Piano concerto and 1st Symphony (and what a great struggle they both were!). Listening to the largo of Haydn's Symphony No.88, Brahms said "I want my 9th symphony to be like this". And in his last great symphonic statement he concludes with... a passacaglia.
.

I agree, Jayne, that it is a deeply loveable piece but it does need a proper contrast between the tender and reflective and the dramatic and driving passages. As you say JEG gets this right with smaller forces; both Klemperer and Tennstedt with much bigger forces and a more romantic approach get it right. I went to hear Riccardo Muti conducting it in Chicago with the Chicago SO and Chorus and was bored out of my mind by slack rhythms and a chorus who never opened their mouths!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It reminds me of how often listeners complain that a contemporary composer (Ades, say, or David Matthews...or John Adams) has used a language that now seems outworn or "out-of-date" - especially with reference to late Romantic or early Modernist/chromatic styles, as if new music is only valid if it reacts or responds to some very recent stylistic development.

Why does Brahms, of all composers, "remind" you of this? Like Bach, he was intensely aware of "very recent stylistic developments" and "reacted or responded" to them head on. Like Schoenberg, he was devoted to the Sonata principle, but the Tonal relationships he explores here would have startled even Beethoven. Take away the Tonic pedal from the Introduction to the First Symphony and you have a passage of Music whose chromaticism rivals Tristan. Brahms the Progressivist wasn't just an eye-catching title; it sums up the revolutionary aspect of the composer's attitude to Music and to the Austro-German Music Tradition - something that had to be kept in a state of "stylistic development" if it were not to stagnate. He wasn't a Max Bruch figure, attempting to stem the flow of such development by damming it in the language of the 1850s - he wanted continuity through progress. This resulted in a personal language that only later Modernists (Mahler, Schoenberg, Busoni) understood for what it was - and why Schenker (who reverred Brahms as "the last master") had such difficulties analyzing his Music. This is a huge difference between Brahms' attitude and those composers today who are hostile to "very recent stylistic developments" (and some not so "very recent") and write in a language that would have sounded timid even in 1955.

PS: after reading ed's quotation of this, it strikes me that the tone of the opening sentence sounds much more sneering than it left here. Genuine interest and (I hope) productive disagreement intended!

[yorks_bass]

I'm glad you were able to report in the choir's size, amac - I felt in my bones that it was a high quality small semi-professional choir rather than a large chorus.

Precisely 80, all professional.

[edashtav]

Precisely 80, all professional.

Well, that's a large choir - by professional standards!

[edashtav]

Why does Brahms, of all composers, "remind" you of this? Like Bach, he was intensely aware of "very recent stylistic developments" and "reacted or responded" to them head on. Like Schoenberg, he was devoted to the Sonata principle, but the Tonal relationships he explores here would have startled even Beethoven. Take away the Tonic pedal from the Introduction to the First Symphony and you have a passage of Music whose chromaticism rivals Tristan. Brahms the Progressivist wasn't just an eye-catching title; it sums up the revolutionary aspect of the composer's attitude to Music and to the Austro-German Music Tradition - something that had to be kept in a state of "stylistic development" if it were not to stagnate. He wasn't a Max Bruch figure, attempting to stem the flow of such development by damming it in the language of the 1850s - he wanted continuity through progress. This resulted in a personal language that only later Modernists (Mahler, Schoenberg, Busoni) understood for what it was - and why Schenker (who reverred Brahms as "the last master") had such difficulties analyzing his Music. This is a huge difference between those composers today who are hostile to "very recent stylistic developments" (and some not so "very recent") and write in a language that would have sounded timid even in 1955.

What a thorough, concise and well argued piece, ferney - one that I wish I could have written myself. I agree with your conclusions and their relevance to arguments about the validity and value of contemporary works written in a style than doesn't develop but plagiarises the music of the recent past.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Many thanks, ed - I've added a couple of clarifications to my original after reading it in your quotation; the tone didn't seem as intended.

[teamsaint]

An ex punk writes......

In a pub style conversation the other day, somebody asked "Who is your favourite composer?"

Daft question really, but there is something , and I really don't know what, that I find compelling about Brahms' music above almost everybody else......even perhaps ...you know who.
And when that rather odd question rears it's head, as it does, the name Brahms is always first in my head. I don't really know why. I don't really even know his work that well...not compared to you lot.
So one day, to find out why this sensation persists, I am going to study his music as thoroughly as I can.

I suspect that the answers lie somewhere in the posts above. I'll get to the bottom of it. In the meantime, the Requiem.......one of those works only to be listened to at the right moments, for me at least. Like the best music, it just takes you to another place. Another wonderful place.

Sorry about the self indulgent post. Blame it on work !!

Oh, and thanks for all the excellent posts above. What an antidote to the world of work etc.