Prom 44 - 15.08.13: Stravinsky, Penderecki, Debussy & Ravel

[edashtav]

Four in favour! I loved it.

There remain 6 days of "extra" iPlayer time. So it's all to play for.

With 3 cellos involved, I'm reminded a little of a Kagel piece scored for 2 celli and percussion that I have somewhere on LP. I think it was called "Match" and was like a prize-fight between its two protagonists.

[Bryn]

There remain 6 days of "extra" iPlayer time. So it's all to play for.

With 3 cellos involved, I'm reminded a little of a Kagel piece scored for 2 celli and percussion that I have somewhere on LP. I think it was called "Match" and was like a prize-fight between its two protagonists.

You can find Match on YouTube.

[edashtav]

Penderecki is no Match for Kagel

You can find Match on YouTube.

My word, Bryn, it really comes alive on video - punch and counter-punch.

Poor Penderecki - his Concerto grosso seems so conventional in comparison !

[Serial_Apologist]

Well the "score" looks about 3-3; I wonder if we can get a conclusive result in "extra" iPlayer time, or must we resort to penalties? I like your term Raw Penderecki, ferney, it does express the rough-edged, hit or miss, experimental nature of the younger version. I hadn't realised that Penderecki-lite has had more longevity than the Raw version. I wonder how Penderecki-lite views his Raw infancy? Some For3 poster is bound to know.

Penderecki has stated in interview that he tired of the avant-garde idiom of his early pieces, though unfortunately I don't have the references. Nevertheless it seems no coincidence that many Polish composers who at one time espoused avant-garde ideas and techniques as offering ways of idiomatic expansion beyond the restrictions of Stalinism in the 1940s and '50s should as it were turn back to conservative idioms when they realised their common Catholic cultural heritage, and ironically embraced harmonic and formal procedures that would have pleased their Stalinist masters a quarter of a century earlier, even probably including the religious content of their subject matter. Lutoslawsky was one of the few who remained faithful to modernism to the end of his life.

[Sir Velo]

I feel that I must disagree with the chorus of approval for Penderecki's idiosyncratic Concerto Grosso. It does have technical merits: marvellous scoring, memorable themes, sound craftmanship and a clear structure.

Sounds like a winner then.

[PJPJ]

Penderecki has stated in interview that he tired of the avant-garde idiom of his early pieces, though unfortunately I don't have the references. Nevertheless it seems no coincidence that many Polish composers who at one time espoused avant-garde ideas and techniques as offering ways of idiomatic expansion beyond the restrictions of Stalinism in the 1940s and '50s should as it were turn back to conservative idioms when they realised their common Catholic cultural heritage, and ironically embraced harmonic and formal procedures that would have pleased their Stalinist masters a quarter of a century earlier, even probably including the religious content of their subject matter. Lutoslawsky was one of the few who remained faithful to modernism to the end of his life.

It is ironic, and it perhaps has something to do with the mellowness of age which affects some and not others. The younger Penderecki's more acerbic and astringent works with all their youthful and political anger may be more avant-garde, and if some prefer those, it does not make them better works, simply more enjoyable ones for them.

I haven't been on the receiving end of KP's music for some years, so the Concerto Grosso's idiom was a surprise, for me a pleasant one, and I must investigate this phase of his output more fully to see whether there are (what are for me) more hidden gems.

Not sure, edashtav, what this competition is about; some enjoyed the 37 minutes, some didn't. Some were transfixed, you were bored.

[edashtav]

It is ironic, and it perhaps has something to do with the mellowness of age which affects some and not others. The younger Penderecki's more acerbic and astringent works with all their youthful and political anger may be more avant-garde, and if some prefer those, it does not make them better works, simply more enjoyable ones for them.

I haven't been on the receiving end of KP's music for some years, so the Concerto Grosso's idiom was a surprise, for me a pleasant one, and I must investigate this phase of his output more fully to see whether there are (what are for me) more hidden gems.

Not sure, edashtav, what this competition is about; some enjoyed the 37 minutes, some didn't. Some were transfixed, you were bored.

The competition , or "score", is no more than daft fun. However, it does encourage listeners to say whether they appreciated a work, or not. It may well reassure the performers and the BBC , that by my crude reckoning supporters outnumber naysayers 6:3 .

Whilst I have by doubts because I feel that so much of the piece is "inherited" and so little has been added by Pendrecki, there's no doubting that this extended work has solid and appealing virtues as Sir Velo has underlined. Perhaps, these facets will safeguard its future. My fear is that as audiences get to know its models better, Penderecki's near plagiarism will pall.

[Roehre]

...Whilst I have by doubts because I feel that so much of the piece is "inherited" and so little has been added by Pendrecki, there's no doubting that this extended work has solid and appealing virtues as Sir Velo has underlined. Perhaps, these facets will safeguard its future. My fear is that as audiences get to know its models better, Penderecki's near plagiarism will pall.

I certainly did enjoy the concerto. But I am completely with Edastav regarding the qualities of the piece itself.
In foodie terms: I from time to time do enjoy a BigMac. but generally prefer to eat something more substantial and original.