Prom 40 - 12.08.13: 6 Music Prom

[edashtav]

...


But many works that are still performed today were received with great acclaim when they were first heard - Haydn's London symphonies, for instance. And plenty of works that are immediately comprehensible on first hearing do not fail the test of repeated hearings; they are not redundant.

Haydn's symphonies were carefully crafted to appeal, and London audience were used to his style from performances of his earlier works. He was a foreign celebrity: people were ready to acclaim him, after all he might be a second Mr Handel who had seemed so at home in the Strand. Even so, Haydn's cunning mixture of "sweet & sour" didn't uniformly please. Pretty minuets & trios were instantly encored but the "Turkish or Indian March" in the "Military" Symphony in G (#100) at its premiere on 31 March 1794 was termed by the Morning Chronicle as summoning “the hellish roar of war” increasing “to a climax of horrid sublimity!” Not so far adrift from some crits. of 21st century pieces!

You're right, aeolium,that some works which receive a warm welcome have real value. They tend to be written in a conservative idiom ( e.g. Britten - Peter Grimes and War Requiem), but those very works often cause a later critical reaction: for all Britten's mastery, does his dated idiom mean that his eventual rating will be less than his current one? I, for one, fear so.

I shall not resile from my position that Telemann is fine for "light listening" but contains too little to engage the critical mind.

But... I don't accept that great music is designed to cool the mind of a tired hard-worker.

You can approach a work of art in a gallery in 1001 ways and levels. Great music is best heard in a concert hall. You're stuck in a seat, encouraged to pipe down. If you don't concentrate on it ... what else can you do?

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

[french frank]

The days when serious music was a background to living [...] departed with the baroque.

Yet - a different topic, I know - isn't that exactly what 'classical music' is being pressurised to become, and is seen as being?

[doversoul1]

Originally Posted by edashtav
I shall not resile from my position that Telemann is fine for "light listening" but contains too little to engage the critical mind.
But... I don't accept that great music is designed to cool the mind of a tired hard-worker.

Critical mind comes in many shapes and colours. Yours is one of many.
Great music does many different things to our mind. It is rather sad that if you can listen to it only in one way.

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

Would you mind expanding this a little?

[aeolium]

for all Britten's mastery, does his dated idiom mean that his eventual rating will be less than his current one? I, for one, fear so.

I couldn't care less for the critical opinion of posterity. Critics have been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. What matters to me is that Britten's music has been valued by a lot of people since it first appeared and still is (and I am one of those who value it).

Great music is best heard in a concert hall. You're stuck in a seat, encouraged to pipe down. If you don't concentrate on it ... what else can you do?

Listen to it? And as you mentioned earlier, there are now plenty of opportunities for listening to all kinds of music outside a concert hall (and for many people a concert-hall is too far away or too difficult to get to).

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

I don't really know what you mean by this.

[edashtav]

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

A time there was when patrons went to concerts either to pose ( and be seen) in a box, or to have a natter and and evening out with friends - the music was merely a background to other, gentlemanly activities.


These days silence from the audience is regarded as a golden rule and For 3 aficionados look down on clapping between movements.

Different times, different mores. Frankly , we have more attention to spare for the music.

Some baroque music was designed to cover the noise from table, e.g. tafelmusik - didn't Telemann compose a deal of that?

[french frank]

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

But was it regarded as 'serious music' in those days?

And what I meant by saying 'classical music was being pressurised' to be like that again is the recognition (yes, okay, I do mean recognition) by, for example, Radio 3, that while 'serious music' is being played throughout the day people are doing other things, not concentrating on it all the time, music as 'the background to their lives'; and not forgetting the 'just behave as you would at a jazz or pop concert', check your mobile for text messages in the middle of Mahler 2, why not? don't shush people because they're whispering throughout the concert (they could be talking out loud), take a lager and packet crisps into the concert if you want to - why are you all so po-faced and stuffy?, never mind the 'concert etiquette' - it's only 100 years old anyway (quite recent) - much more 'authentic' to treat a concert as just a relaxing evening out with your mates, movement. 'Serious music?' - I can do that perfectly well and balance 12 plates on a stick poking out of my mouth at the same time.

But on aeolium's point, I think I can see both sides: there will be those who feel there might be something between Lachenmann and 'Ladies in Lavender' to represent contemporary music: the one having a much smaller appreciative modern audience than Beethoven, the other having a much larger one.

[aeolium]

The days when serious music was a background to living or being "seen" departed with the baroque.

A time there was when patrons went to concerts either to pose ( and be seen) in a box, or to have a natter and and evening out with friends - the music was merely a background to other, gentlemanly activities....

Some baroque music was designed to cover the noise from table, e.g. tafelmusik - didn't Telemann compose a deal of that?

Those days certainly didn't end with the baroque. Mozart and Haydn both wrote a lot of lighter occasional music (e.g. Mozart's Serenades and Cassations, Haydn's Feldparti music) not least in reflection of their status as servants of their respective courts, until they became freelance composers. And lighter music continued to be composed into the C19 and indeed the first part of the C20.

Another point is that music, like literature, is not confined to serious epics like War and Peace, or tragedies like Phèdre or Woyzeck. There is also room for lighter and comic work, the equivalent of Mark Twain, Wodehouse or Damon Runyon, as well as less substantial entertainment like Conan Doyle. Not every work composed can be, or should be expected to be, a great masterpiece. It is an artefact for which there can be different ways to listen.

But on aeolium's point, I think I can see both sides: there will be those who feel there might be something between Lachenmann and 'Ladies in Lavender' to represent contemporary music: the one having a much smaller appreciative modern audience than Beethoven, the other having a much larger one.

As I think can be shown, ff, by the comment recently made by PJPJ on Naresh Soral's music on another Prom thread, music to which others had reacted unfavourably.

[edashtav]

But was it regarded as 'serious music' in those days?

Ouch - yes, I shot myself in the foot! ... and several times later on - I must learn to go to bed.

[Sir Velo]

You're right, aeolium,that some works which receive a warm welcome have real value. They tend to be written in a conservative idiom ( e.g. Britten - Peter Grimes and War Requiem), but those very works often cause a later critical reaction: for all Britten's mastery, does his dated idiom mean that his eventual rating will be less than his current one? I, for one, fear so.

Well, 40 years after BB'S death, his reputation seems as strong as ever. Moreover, writing in a conservative idiom does not seem to have affected the posthumous reputations of Brahms, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov, Elgar and Vaughan Williams among others. In fact, the more time passes, the less it matters to posterity whether a composer was an innovator or not.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, 40 years after BB'S death, his reputation seems as strong as ever. Moreover, writing in a conservative idiom does not seem to have affected the posthumous reputations of Brahms, Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov, Elgar and Vaughan Williams among others. In fact, the more time passes, the less it matters to posterity whether a composer was an innovator or not.

[arthroceph]

There seem to be literally no limits to Tom Service's amibitions.