Prom 37 - 10.08.13: Urban Classic Prom

[doversoul1]

Seconded

[DavidP]

Oh dear...

I read this thread with great interest. It was an intelligent discussion of the merits of the Urban prom with views ranging from considering it 'garbage' to those who thought it had some (usually slight) merit but questioned what relevance it had to classical Music. Then you entered the fray and literally out of nowhere, racism and demographics appear. Bizarre references to Wagner's writings, Stanley Hoffman (I prefer Stanley Holloway myself) and Steven Pollard's 'rightwing elitist view'? So someone giving their honest opinion that a prom is aesthetically not very good is, in your mind, no different to Wagner's racist writing? Amazing!

Oh dear, indeed!

You're not very attuned to the nuances of language are you my doddery old friend? I said such judgements can be racist not that your dislike (which is neither here nor there) of this particular prom was in itself racist. Just because you become angry at that which you don't understand it's no good projecting that anger on to me. Why should I dumb my language down to suit your impoverished level of understanding? Given your anti-intellectual stance I'm not surprised you missed the point of my reference to Wagner. Yes, Wagner was a racist but that wasn't my point. Although he had a racial animus against Mendelssohn his comments about the music are the expression of a legitimate aesthetic (Even if a wrong one!)

you yourself did not think much of it either, hence your weasel words "I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to make a judgment" (translation: "It's not very good, but I'd be a cultural imperialist to say so." Sadly DacidP, the appreciation of music or any of the arts is all about making judgments

Come off it! Of course "the appreciation of music or any of the arts is all about making judgments" but you and others on here saw the title Urban Prom and had already made up your minds that it wasn't any good regardless of how good or bad the actual music was, simply on the basis it wasn't 'Western Classical Music'.

you entered the fray and literally out of nowhere, racism and demographics appear.

Of course distinctions based on class or race don't really exist in society - it's only bizarre obsessives like me who keep going on about them. If you don't think race and class are issues in classical music then just look around you at the next concert you attend and see how many non-white faces you can identify in the audience let alone within the orchestra. Watch BBC Young Musician next time and see how many of the kids come from comprehensive schools or have parents with non-professional backgrounds.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You're not very attuned to the nuances of language are you my doddery old friend?

Are Ageist comments really the way "bizarre obsessives" think that they can best attack "distinctions based on race or class"?

[Resurrection Man]

..... If you don't think race and class are issues in classical music then just look around you at the next concert you attend and see how many non-white faces you can identify in the audience .....

You're the one making an issue out of it. Last time I looked at the admission requirements for a classical concert I don't remember reading "No non-whites or those on the dole admitted". It's called 'personal choice' whether or not you want to listen to classical music.

[cheesehoven]

Oh dear, indeed!

You're not very attuned to the nuances of language are you my doddery old friend? I said such judgements can be racist not that your dislike (which is neither here nor there) of this particular prom was in itself racist. Just because you become angry at that which you don't understand it's no good projecting that anger on to me. Why should I dumb my language down to suit your impoverished level of understanding? Given your anti-intellectual stance I'm not surprised you missed the point of my reference to Wagner. Yes, Wagner was a racist but that wasn't my point. Although he had a racial animus against Mendelssohn his comments about the music are the expression of a legitimate aesthetic (Even if a wrong one!)



Come off it! Of course "the appreciation of music or any of the arts is all about making judgments" but you and others on here saw the title Urban Prom and had already made up your minds that it wasn't any good regardless of how good or bad the actual music was, simply on the basis it wasn't 'Western Classical Music'.



Of course distinctions based on class or race don't really exist in society - it's only bizarre obsessives like me who keep going on about them. If you don't think race and class are issues in classical music then just look around you at the next concert you attend and see how many non-white faces you can identify in the audience let alone within the orchestra. Watch BBC Young Musician next time and see how many of the kids come from comprehensive schools or have parents with non-professional backgrounds.

Sorry as I am to continue to feed you, I will make one more comment to clarify your confused ideologically driven mind. I see that others have already begun to address your obsession with race and I will leave them to it. Also your veiled insults are unworthy and speak very badly of your petulant character.

But where have I expressed my dislike from this prom? I have said that there will be more proms like this will be the future, which they will be. I have made no comment about it one way or another. Speed-reading through my posts and assuming that I hold opinions which I do not is a low dishonest tactic. I have no opinion on the Prom since I have not seen it.I was actually reading this thread, with great interest, to see if it would be worth my while to watch/listen to it. I had an open mind about it which remains. The consensus here was that it is not worth watching and since this comes from thoughtful people I respect that. I may or may not watch it, and if I do, I will give my honest view of it. Not your mendacious self justifying and cowardly "not presumptuous enough to make a judgment" (coming from someone who makes a huge amounts of assumptions, all incorrect, that's laughable- and personal insults and projecting your own petulance onto others are no substitute for reasoned argument).

But your comments, coming out of nowhere, were so wildly over the top that I felt I had to comment. My first thought was that they were some kind of joke. Its clearly not, however. It would be easy to dismiss such opinion as being of the 'lunatic fringe' except that they are now the mainstream at the BBC.

My own view about whether the proms should change is actually an open one. People here have rightly pointed out that there was more actual truly ear-opening multicultural proms 30 years ago. If we had proms which introduced us to the traditional music of the world, I'd be in favour of it. But that's not what we will get now. What has changed is that tastes of the gate keepers have become debased. To them multicultural means: Bjork, Jamaican steel drums, electric 'folk' music, 'urban', riverdance, Bollywood Shakespeare and songs from the townships.

[slava]

I have read much, but not all of the posts on this thread and am surprised not to have seen the expression 'dumbing down'. (Apologies to the poster if I have missed it)

The BBC are obviously scrabbling around for PR excuses, however contrived, to show just how all embracing their programming is, when the truth is that its appeal used to be offering what people wanted on specialised channels. The Third Programme of blessed memory was for classical music. We knew where we stood then. What is more they would broadcast only complete works, and not employ the 'pull out the plums' concept of 'another radio station'. I might be mistaken, but I think the 'plums' concept has now crept into BBC 3.

These days we have a mish-mash of subjects on all kinds of different channels such that Radio 4's 'Today', formerly a valuable and respected source for news and current affairs, is now all things to all men, and from time to time features items on pop music (for example) and other subjects which plainly do not fall into the 'news' category and for which there is ample airspace on other channels which is where I would go if I want to hear such discussion.

I haven't seen this particular concert, so some will say that I shouldn't comment, but with over 300 years of fine music to chose from, this apparently dumbed down concert, an apparent hijacking of the Promenade Concert concept, can be safely ignored.

But the PR disaster taking place right now within the BBC with such editorial choices cannot and should not be ignored.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have read much, but not all of the posts on this thread and am surprised not to have seen the expression 'dumbing down'. (Apologies to the poster if I have missed it)

No apology needed, slava, but I did say this earlier.

By having the courage to introduce young people to classical music in schools and on children's programmes. By amending schemes like SingUp, so that they are not constantly dumbing down by turning communal singing into undisguised rock concerts. I've been in musical education for my entire working life, and I know what works. Believe me, if we continue down the same suicidal route the "tiny, largely white, largely middle-class and elderly audience" will fizzle out altogether.

[slava]

Ah, just found a 'dumbing down' reference. Apologies. However I stand by what I say. All my life I have experienced the 'elitist' argument which I just could never understand. The elation experienced during a really top class performance just cannot be bottled, I so wish it could, and is available to absolutely anyone who can open their ears to it.

But as I say, I have never understood the attitude of the so-called broadminded.

EDIT: Thanks Eine Alpensinfonie. Our posts crossed. : )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Messi and Ronaldo being elite players doesn't seem to offend people in the same way.

[Sir Velo]

I have read much, but not all of the posts on this thread and am surprised not to have seen the expression 'dumbing down'. (Apologies to the poster if I have missed it)

I think that may be because the expression is considered offensive to those without the faculty of speech; better to use something else in these PC days.

[Stunsworth]

The Third Programme of blessed memory was for classical music

No it wasn't.

[Bryn]

No it wasn't.

Quite so. Oh, and while we are at it, does anyone here have easy access to programme details of the early days of the Henry Wood Promenade Concerts? They, I am given to understand, included a fair bit of 'low culture' music.

About to spin a couple of episodes of "Why Bother", a very fine Radio 3 production:

[Wagnerfan]

Sorry as I am to continue to feed you, I will make one more comment to clarify your confused ideologically driven mind. I see that others have already begun to address your obsession with race and I will leave them to it. Also your veiled insults are unworthy and speak very badly of your petulant character.

But where have I expressed my dislike from this prom? I have said that there will be more proms like this will be the future, which they will be. I have made no comment about it one way or another. Speed-reading through my posts and assuming that I hold opinions which I do not is a low dishonest tactic. I have no opinion on the Prom since I have not seen it.I was actually reading this thread, with great interest, to see if it would be worth my while to watch/listen to it. I had an open mind about it which remains. The consensus here was that it is not worth watching and since this comes from thoughtful people I respect that. I may or may not watch it, and if I do, I will give my honest view of it. Not your mendacious self justifying and cowardly "not presumptuous enough to make a judgment" (coming from someone who makes a huge amounts of assumptions, all incorrect, that's laughable- and personal insults and projecting your own petulance onto others are no substitute for reasoned argument).

But your comments, coming out of nowhere, were so wildly over the top that I felt I had to comment. My first thought was that they were some kind of joke. Its clearly not, however. It would be easy to dismiss such opinion as being of the 'lunatic fringe' except that they are now the mainstream at the BBC.

My own view about whether the proms should change is actually an open one. People here have rightly pointed out that there was more actual truly ear-opening multicultural proms 30 years ago. If we had proms which introduced us to the traditional music of the world, I'd be in favour of it. But that's not what we will get now. What has changed is that tastes of the gate keepers have become debased. To them multicultural means: Bjork, Jamaican steel drums, electric 'folk' music, 'urban', riverdance, Bollywood Shakespeare and songs from the townships.

Hang on a moment! YOU were the one who responded to my post by making assumptions about me (Something you continue to do - I am not confused, I don't have an ideology and I'm not 'obsessed with race'). YOU took issue with my first post (which was written in measured language) with the use of derogatory words such as ‘Bizarre’, ‘Amazing’, 'Fanatical' and so on - plus 'shouting' via the use of CAPITAL letters - simply because my comments were incomprehensible to you and outside the range of views you thought acceptable. All this speaks very badly of your pompous, intolerant and overly-judgmental character.

You don't need to express your dislike of this particular prom since it is abundantly obvious in everything else you say. That you have just managed to use the word 'debased' alongside Jamaican steel drums, urban music, Bollywood and songs from the townships says it all really. Given this, your assertion that you have an 'open mind' and that you expressed no judgment on the prom are disingenuous to say the least. I didn't pass comment on the concert since I hadn't heard it myself and I'm not going to do so just to please you. I suggest this is a more honest attitude than your mendacious, self-justifying and cowardly 'I didn't hear the concert but I'm happy to accept the verdict of other people because their opinions just happen to coincide with my own prejudices.'

This renders your sudden espousal of multi-culturalism dishonest and hypocritical in the extreme. It is an old tactic to express admiration for something which is safely in the past (your 'multicultural proms 30 years ago') and which doesn't cost you anything in the present. This is nicely revealed by your comment that attempts to do the same now are 'debased'. It is hard to believe that this assessment is based on anything other than that it happens to conveniently fit your the BBC is going-to-the-dogs narrative. Another assumption on my point? Well, let me remind you what you said earlier.

Im not sure if this post is genuine or just a skillful parody but I'm afraid to say that the BBC is staffed (one dare not say 'manned') with people who SERIOUSLY think in this cliche-ridden way which is why you will be seeing more, MUCH more of Proms like this urban one in the future. The poster's obsession with race, demographics and 'outreach' make me suspect he's really a BBC commissioning editor.
The BBC (or at least its most influential members) hates the proms in its current form and are determined to change it. If the proms had never existed and the BBC had to invent it now from scratch, it obviously would take a VERY different form, a multicultural event where Western music played only a small role. They are moving towards that goal by stealth.

Those dastardly BBC commissioning editors! At this rate of attrition the Proms will be a 'multicultural event' with Western music playing 'only a small role' in only about 70 years time!

Given this, my first thought was to wonder if your post was genuine or just a skilful parody of the kind of conspiracy theories found in the comments section of the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph. (Such as the reference to 'manned' and your evident belief there is some conspiracy to stop you saying it.) Are there people who really think in this cliché-ridden way? The poster's obsession with the BBC and its supposed agenda to undermine Western culture make me suspect he's really a Daily Mail columnist.

Where is your evidence that the BBC 'hates the proms'? What is the point of your wholly speculative and irrelevant hypothetical?

The Proms were created by Robert Newman and Henry Wood (not the BBC) in 1895 with the aim, as the former put it, to "train the public by easy stages. Popular at first, gradually raising the standard until I have created a public for classical and modern music."

I suspect he would have thoroughly approved of the BBC's continuing efforts just as he would have approved of "Il sistema" in Venezuela and similar efforts being made in Scotland. There is hardly a major orchestra or arts institution in the UK that doesn't engage in what I call, for want of a better term, 'outreach' work. It is, after all, one of the conditions for the awarding of Arts Council funding in the first place

So, it seems I'm far from the only person with an "obsession with race, demographics and 'outreach'". The fact that, at least since the McPherson report we now regularly talk of 'institutional racism' in many parts of British society shows how mainstream and widely-held these ideas are now. Why should classical music be thought immune?

And, if you think it is then you should read this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/05/race.classicalmusic

Sadly, no one on here (apart from me) has even begun to address these kinds of issues. Indeed, we have already had the usual expressions of 'colour blindness', ‘head-in-the-sand’, ‘blame the messenger for the message’ we've already had from Resurrection Man (who has a strange notion of what constitutes 'choice' - as if social background and unequal access to education don't play a role), Slava (someone who, like you, thinks the rest of the world shares his incomprehension and myopia) and Eine Alpensinfonie (who imagines silly and irrelevant references to premier league footballers constitutes some kind of argument).

You can hold these attitudes as private individuals but not as the head of a major arts institution. And if you think you are defending our beloved repertoire in taking such a stance you are sadly mistaken. (Maybe you don't care about securing the audience for classical music into the future but want it merely to be a signifier of a belief in your own social superiority). These attitudes are very revealing of the kind of people who frequent this forum and explains why you don't have a chance of influencing Radio 3 policy. No wonder the current controller of Radio 3 regards you with barely disguised contempt.

"I've had contact with these people over a long time. We arranged a meeting to discuss their concerns. I expected a hundred people to march on Broadcasting House. Two turned up and even they couldn't agree whether jazz was any good. They are a lobby group and there is no evidence that they are representative of our 2.3 million listeners. They are looking to return to a world that probably never existed."

I couldn't have put it better myself!

[Resurrection Man]

At the risk of repeating myself...

[french frank]

"I've had contact with these people over a long time. We arranged a meeting to discuss their concerns. I expected a hundred people to march on Broadcasting House. Two turned up and even they couldn't agree whether jazz was any good. They are a lobby group and there is no evidence that they are representative of our 2.3 million listeners. They are looking to return to a world that probably never existed."

I couldn't have put it better myself!

Well, 'malcolmtalcum', you've posted that quote before - and were recognised as a troll for registering here to do so and sneer.

This is - what? your sixth? seventh? attempt at disrupting discussion here, since you started out as 'hermannesque'. You started your own thread to discuss film music (as invited to do so), then abandoned it - in spite of the fact that many people were willing to engage with you. And now you return to resurrect a thread because you want to bang your single drum again.

And it has been explained - though your twisted thinking won't accept it - that this forum is not made up of FoR3 supporters, but of Radio 3 listeners. FoR3 itself has no policy on the matters you raise and has never campaigned over them. Individuals have views, that's all.

I've reopened the thread in the interests of freedom of speech but it will be closed if it goes off topic.