Prom 37 - 10.08.13: Urban Classic Prom

[DavidP]

I've been in musical education for my entire working life, and I know what works.

I don't know what practical experience you have of musical education - your only reference to any 'outreach' work you took part in was to call it 'trashy' and imply you and your fellow musicians were only pretending to 'enjoy' it.

By having the courage to introduce young people to classical music in schools and on children's programmes. By amending chemes like SingU, so that they arenot constantly dumbing down by turning communal singing into undisguised rock concerts.

For a start you don't win converts by telling them that other types of music represent a 'dumbing down'. The very idea that classical music possesses some sort of cultural superiority was exploded nearly 50 years ago (When William Mann hailed John Lennon and Paul McCartney as the outstanding new composers of 1963.) In maintaining this idea you simply confirm the suspicion of many that people who like classical music are snobbish and elitist.

You don't get people to classical music by immediately foisting it down their throats with exhortations to the effect that it is 'for their own good' and that the music they like is irredeemably inferior to it. You do it by teaching them a love of music in all its forms, showing them how the music they like and are familiar with relates to the rest of musical culture. Do it your way and they'll be put off from the start!

By the way, Sing Up's purpose is not to introduce classical music to kids but to make singing an integral part of a child's education - an admirable aim in its own right I would have thought.

[Resurrection Man]

I know – it’s political correctness gawn mad!

I’m not sure if the above post is genuine or just a skilful parody of the kind of comments you might find below an on-line article in the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph. And, I bet you're one of these people who think the EU has banned curved bananas and that ‘equal marriage’ is a plot by the gay lobby to undermine Western Civilization - you silly old duffer!

Your stereotypical reply dismissing a very valid response tells its own story.

[Nick Armstrong]

I know – it’s political correctness gawn mad!

I’m not sure if the above post is genuine or just a skilful parody of the kind of comments you might find below an on-line article in the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph. And, I bet you're one of these people who think the EU has banned curved bananas and that ‘equal marriage’ is a plot by the gay lobby to undermine Western Civilization - you silly old duffer!

You've undermined a lot of what you've hitherto said with that response.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't know what practical experience you have of musical education ...

40 years of it to date, and I stand by every word.

The very idea that classical music possesses some sort of cultural superiority was exploded nearly 50 years ago (When William Mann hailed John Lennon and Paul McCartney as the outstanding new composers of 1963.)

So one man's comment is decisive?

In maintaining this idea you simply confirm the suspicion of many that people who like classical music are snobbish and elitist.

A very tired argument. Most children do like classical music; it's the prejudices of adults that shield them from it.

[DavidP]

You've undermined a lot of what you've hitherto said with that response.

Well, the reprehensible old reactionary made for such an easy target I couldn't resist! Besides, what makes you think I give a toss? I long ago gave up trying to convince many of the closed minds on here.

[DavidP]

So one man's comment is decisive

It's not about 'one man's view' it is an unpalatable (for you) fact of history. It is simply the case that classical music no longer has the cultural hegemony it once had. Where have you been for the last half-century?

Most children do like classical music; it's the prejudices of adults that shield them from it.

Sweet! It must be so lovely to be that naive and out of touch!

[Bryn]

But if they're broadcasting them on the other services too, why would people want to listen to them on Radio 3?

Because only Radio 3 offers HD Sound via the iPlayer? My understanding is that the other channels have to make do with nominal* 128kbps HE-AAC, whereas Radio 3 has the option of a nominal 320kbps AAC-LC.

* In the case of last night's BBC Radio 6 Music 'HI' bandwidth offering it is reported as 130kbps AAC (ABR).

[Resurrection Man]

Well, the reprehensible old reactionary made for such an easy target I couldn't resist! Besides, what makes you think I give a toss? I long ago gave up trying to convince many of the closed minds on here.

[PJPJ]

Because only Radio 3 offers HD Sound via the iPlayer? My understanding is that the other channels have to make do with nominal* 128kbps HE-AAC, whereas Radio 3 has the option of a nominal 320kbps AAC-LC.

* In the case of last night's BBC Radio 6 Music 'HI' bandwidth offering it is reported as 130kbps AAC (ABR).

iplayer has Prom 40 at 320/aac at the moment [bee in bonnet].

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, the reprehensible old reactionary made for such an easy target I couldn't resist!

You may express opinions that may be challenging, but insulting other posters isn't acceptable.

[Bryn]

iplayer has Prom 40 at 320/aac at the moment [bee in bonnet].

Via the iPlayer BBC Radio 6 Music page? Is that not via the BBC Radio 3 page?

[PJPJ]

Via the iPlayer BBC Radio 6 Music page? Is that not via the BBC Radio 3 page?

That's via R3 - it didn't occur to me the concert would be uploaded twice, I must say.

[DavidP]

You may express opinions that may be challenging, but insulting other posters isn't acceptable.

As you are a host can I ask why the forum members who wrote personally insulting messages about me on "The Classic FM-isation of R3 is almost complete" thread - one of which I reported but with no response - were not 'publically' reprimanded in such a way? Or is this just hypocricy on your part?

[teamsaint]

Well, the reprehensible old reactionary made for such an easy target I couldn't resist! Besides, what makes you think I give a toss? I long ago gave up trying to convince many of the closed minds on here.

Self evidently you haven't.
Anyway, FWIW, most of the minds round here seem pretty open musically, to me. That is one of the reasons I stick around.

I have NO idea where I could find another board with such informed views on a variety of music including Classical, world, Rock and pop, Jazz ,folk or whatever else.

[cheesehoven]

I know – it’s political correctness gawn mad!

I’m not sure if the above post is genuine or just a skilful parody of the kind of comments you might find below an on-line article in the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph. And, I bet you're one of these people who think the EU has banned curved bananas and that ‘equal marriage’ is a plot by the gay lobby to undermine Western Civilization - you silly old duffer!

Oh dear...

I read this thread with great interest. It was an intelligent discussion of the merits of the Urban prom with views ranging from considering it 'garbage' to those who thought it had some (usually slight) merit but questioned what relevance it had to classical Music. Then you entered the fray and literally out of nowhere, racism and demographics appear. Bizarre references to Wagner's writings, Stanley Hoffman (I prefer Stanley Holloway myself) and Steven Pollard's 'rightwing elitist views'? So someone giving their honest opinion that a prom is aesthetically not very good is, in your mind, no different to Wagner's racist writing? Amazing! And one incidentally, DavidP, you yourself did not think much of it either, hence your weasel words "I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to make a judgment" (translation: "It's not very good, but I'd be a cultural imperialist to say so." Sadly DavidP, the appreciation of music or any of the arts is all about making judgments.

Although you "wouldn't be presumptuous enough to make judgments" about something you actually have heard, that does not stop you from making judgments about me despite not knowing what my opinions are on the matters above (or any matter), since I've haven't mentioned them, I've merely responded to your pompous and fanatical post. To state the difference between us, DavidP, is that you've created strawman positions for me for yourself to argue against while I have merely quoted your own words. As far as I can see, you're the only person here obsessed with race, class, and demographics.